Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rice!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: leafusa!enos!lae@eddie.mit.edu (Larry Enos x5572) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Veneration of saints Message-ID: Date: 7 Mar 91 08:16:03 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 122 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I too am `intrigued' by the story of the resurrection of the dead man who was cast into the tomb of Elisha. I have no explanation for this miracle except to say that it is a wonderful demonstration of the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit, of which Elisha had been given a double portion. But it does not justify the practice of praying to or otherwise venerating saints. If we examine the story closely, it is clear that no one prayed to Elisha to raise the dead man. Nor does the bible say that Elisha prayed for him to be raised. Likewise, the story does not tell us that afterward the witnesses of the miracle began to venerate Elisha because of it. Instead they ran away in fear. Therefore, from this account, we can only conclude that the Spirit of God was in that place, and that, where the Spirit of God is, there is life. Why should anyone point to this incident as proof of the correctness of praying to saints? Perhaps because Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that such signs are an indication that a dead saint is worthy of veneration. Yet, if this is true, why is it that this practice was not incorporated into later Jewish religious practice? Why is there no recommendation in later biblical or Talmudic texts to venerate or pray to Elisha or the other OT saints? Similarly, why didn't the apostles in their writings advise us to pray to the OT saints or, for that matter, to the dead NT saints? (After all, Stephen and James the son of Zebedee had already died by the time the apostles wrote their epistles.) Surely if this practice is useful for us to grow in Christ, the apostles would have mentioned it at least once. They frequently exhort us to call upon the name of the Lord, to assemble together, to pray unceasingly, to prophesy, and to do so many other things. Why do they never tell us to venerate or pray to themselves or the dead saints? I believe the reason for this is because the apostles knew this practice is idolatrous. Consider the reaction of Paul and Barnabbas when the people of Lystra wanted to worship them because of the healing of the lame man. They tore their clothes in anguish and begged the people not to idolize them, but to turn and worship the living God. What would their reaction be to those people who kiss statues of the saints, parade them through the streets, light candles to them, and bow down before them, as is commonly done today by so many venerators of the saints? Consider the pronouncement against idolatry by the apostles at the first council of the church. Also consider the following statement of John: Little children, guard yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:21) Would John accept these idolatrous practices because the objects of this worship were the saints of God? Never! Similarly, what would the writer of Hebrews say to those who pray to the saints to intercede for them before God? Consider the following verses: Since therefore the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself, in like manner shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 2:14,17; 4:16) Would the writer of Hebrews agree that we need someone other than Christ, our great High Priest, to mediate between us and God? Certainly not. Why then, with so much evidence against them, do some people continue to defend the practice of venerating the saints. One reason is because they were brought up to believe that this is a holy and righteous thing to do. As a former Roman Catholic (I graduated from a Catholic High School), I know how much emphasis is placed on venerating the saints in Catholicism. And it is very difficult to abandon practices that have been wrought into you in this way. Doing so requires denying yourself and your soul life. Also, I believe that God's enemy deceives many people about this issue. Throughout the ages, Satan has done everything in his power to encourage people to seek out objects of veneration in order to lead them away from God. And he has shown himself to be fully capable of accomplishing `miracles' to accomplish this end. Consider the examples of Pharoah's magicians in Exodus, and Simon Magus and the slave with the spirit of prophesy in Acts. Thus, I sincerely believe that all too many `miracles' do no come from God at all, but from His enemy. This is why the apostles warned us not be impressed by signs and wonders (I Cor. 1:22), but to hold fast to the Truth which they taught us from the beginning (I John 2:24). At this point, I realize that I have probably offended many Catholics believers. If so, I am sorry for this and hope that they will realize that I have not said any of this to put them down, but rather to convince them to turn away from what I believe is at best a vain and dangerous practice. Brothers and sisters, venerating the saints cannot help you to come to God, but can only hurt and frustrate your going on. But don't believe me. For my words, or Joe Buehler's, or those of Augustine and the other Church Fathers can never be completely trustworthy. Only the Lord's speaking to you in your spirit is true. Therefore, I urge you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to take this matter before Him in prayer, sincerely seeking His anointing and enlightenment. Ask him to show you what He thinks about saint veneration, including such practices as keeping statues and images, praying to the saints, venerating relics, etc. Also, ask Him to reveal to you clearly what ultimately are the spiritual results of such practices. Finally, be honest and open before Him and ask Him to reveal the thoughts and intentions of your heart in holding to these practices. If you seek Him in this way, in spirit and truth, He will honor your prayer by revealing His will to you in your spirit. As John said: And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for any one to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in Him. (I John 2:27) May the Lord enlighten each one who seeks Him in this way, for His name's sake and for the sake of His kingdom. Praise the Lord! Amen.