Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl
From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Fooling the censors
Summary: You own the system?  You decide what to carry.  PERIOD.
Message-ID: <1991Mar13.061240.9825@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: 13 Mar 91 06:12:40 GMT
References: <532@iczer-1.UUCP> <CNH5730.91Mar7100654@maraba.tamu.edu> <1991Mar13.033143.29172@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Wheeling, IL
Lines: 73

In article <1991Mar13.033143.29172@ddsw1.MCS.COM> zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) writes:
>
>	I have something to say.
>
>In article <CNH5730.91Mar7100654@maraba.tamu.edu> cnh5730@maraba.tamu.edu writes:
>>
>>If you are going to offer news groups to down-stream sites, you do
>>_NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHICH NEWS GROUPS YOU ARE GOING TO
>>DENY TO THE HUMAN BEINGS DOWN-STREAM FROM YOU_.
>	I grant you this opinion . . .(I am yet undecided what would be right.)

No.  This opinion is WRONG.

When you, as the downstream site, buy me the modems, disk space, CPU and
electric power that I need to run the machine, and pay me to run it, THEN 
AND ONLY THEN can you tell me what to carry here.  Believe me, you won't
like the bill you get should you really try to do this :-)

It's my disk, my electricity, my machine and my phone bill.  Since I pay 
the bills, I choose what I carry AND distribute.

You don't like this?  Then find someone who will feed you what you want.  Go
to UUNET if you must; you'll pay for it, but if you want that kind of service 
(and are willing to pay for it) then UUNET (and others) are there.  UUNET
has a simple policy -- they carry everything and anything.  It's part of 
their service statement, so I guess it would be considered part of their
contract.  

You simply will not, and cannot, tell me what to carry or feed as long as
I'm paying the bills and own the machine you're getting the feed from.  
If you try, I simply turn off your feed (and you get >no< feed at all).

Now, if I'm charging you for the feed, you can contract with me for some
portion of the feed, all of it, or whatever.  That's a contract, agreed to 
by both parties.  No problem there.  But I have no obligation just 'cause I
distribute news to distribute or receive all of it.

I'll say this though -- I do feed people, and I reserve the right to drop
any group at any time for any reason.  On the floor.  Done, gone, and
trashed.  It hasn't happened yet, but trust me, it gets thought about 
once in a while.

There are lots of sites doing this, especially with groups like
alt.sex.pictures.  The reason isn't censorship -- it's cost and potential
liability.  a.s.p is the worst offender on the cost basis, >and< the 
articles in that group are nearly all on shaky legal ground as well 
(copyrights you know).

>>I would submit that the only reason news feeds have been able to get
>>away with this so far is that no legal case has been initiated in
>>which quality lawyers have been enlisted. I, for one, would be willing
>>to donate to such a case if a lawyer like William Kunstler were
>>retained.

You'd lose big time, and when the person you sued got done with you you'd 
be more broke than you can imagine.  Harassment suits are not good things 
to file; for one thing, they tend to get tossed back in your face.

Again, as long as I pay the bills, I decide what to feed and receive.
Simple enough.  It's my money and I'll decide where it gets spent.

>	No.  We should not bring lawyers into this and the government, etc.
>The net is working very well as an anarchy, and it should stay that way. . .

Yes.  Should lawyers get seriously involved in the net, you won't have 
to worry about it anymore -- it will likely cease to exist.  (yeah, I 
know, death of the net predicted :-)

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 808-7300], Voice: [+1 708 808-7200]
Copyright 1991 Karl Denninger.  Distribution by site(s) which restrict
redistribution of Usenet news PROHIBITED.