Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Sacraments Message-ID: Date: 9 Mar 91 03:40:55 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 85 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , news@hoss.unl.edu (Network News Administer) writes: > In tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: > >> As reformers sought to bring the >>church back to its roots, the Old Testament was amended, 5 sacraments >>were elimimated, (since Jesus never participated in them). etc... > > Can you explain that a little more clearly for me? It seems like Christ > participated in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (he forgave sins a lot, > and commissioned his disciples to do so), Anointing of the Sick, Holy > Orders (commissioning of ministers), baptism (actually, the direct > evidence is that His disciples baptized under His supervision, but He > certainly directed them to baptize), and the Eucharist. Confirmation and > matrimony are separate cases, but both based on His teaching. What's the > Protestant understanding of the sacraments? I didn't think they all > agreed on the number of sacraments. But there seem to be particular > problems with any claim that five sacraments were eliminated because > Christ didn't participate in them. Actually it is not so much a matter of eliminating sacraments as redefining what is a sacrament. Luther believed at first that there were three: baptism , penance, and the Lord's supper. He later came to the belief that penance/repentance was really just a part of baptism; that in baptism the Lord moves us to repentance throughout our lives. Luther defined a sacrament to be an act that 1. used visible means (water, wine, bread) 2. was commanded by Christ 3. offered the promise of God's grace. Luther (and Lutherans) believed that a sacrament is a means of grace, just as the preaching of the Word is a means of grace. A means of grace is a way in which God works faith in our hearts and thereby forgives our sins. Baptism and the Lord's Supper, for example, are means of grace. Marriage, on the other hand, is instituted by God, and is a very great blessing, but does not in and of itself convey forgiveness of sins. Similarly the healin of the sick was done by Christ, and is also a great blessing, but does not necessarily heal the spirit. Our moderator writes: > It's hard to speak for all > Protestants, but generally the definition of a sacrament is that it is > a symbolic act which presents the Word in a visible form, which Christ > ordained. This is a very Calvinist or Zwinglian definition. > In fact there's a certain arbitrariness to this distinction, and I > believe it was recognized at the time. Luther said at one point that > he wasn't so concerned with whether something (I think confession, > though I may have the wrong sacrament) was considered a sacrament as > whether it was carried out in a Scriptural manner. I agree, although once we define 'sacrament', then it matters what is a sacrament. > Catholicism sees the world > sacramentally. It's not just the 7 formal sacraments, but the whole > package of saints, Mary, and in fact the role of the Church itself. The nature of a sacrament vs. a sacrifice is one of the big differences between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Lutherans believe that a sacrament is something God does for us, whereas a sacrifice is our response to God's grace. Of course the one really effective sacrifice was performed by Christ, when he offered himself on the cross as a sacrifice for all of our sins. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "O Dearest Jesus, What law hast thou broken That such sharp sentence should on Thee be spoken? Of what great crime hast Thou to make confession, --What dark transgression? "Whence come these sorrows, Whence this mortal anguish? It is my sins for which Thou, Lord, must languish; Yea, all the wrath, the woe, Thou dost inherit, This I do merit." "O Dearest Jesus, What Law Hast Thou Broken" v. 1,2 ("Herzliebster Jesu") --Johann Heerman, 1630 --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #143. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.