Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!wuarchive!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Veneration of saints Message-ID: Date: 11 Mar 91 08:11:38 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 104 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In response to the latest of many attacks on Christians who believe what the Bible tells them, I'll take this opportunity to say one or two things about saint veneration. At Cana, Mary is the first person to declare humanity's fundamental need: "They have no wine." Jesus responds, "Woman, what is that to me and to you? My hour has not yet come." Mary, instead of speaking to Jesus, speaks to the servers of the Wedding Feast between the Church and the Lamb, saying, "Do you whatever He tells you to do." This is what it means to be devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary: To do whatever Jesus Christ tells us to do. The author of the earlier post clearly believes that, if he had trouble with worshipping God by venerating saints, then all people must fall into the same trap. Clearly, this is not so. At the very least, it is not so with me. Also, he has misused (as usual) the term prayer. A prayer means "request." Prayer to the saints means making requests of the saints, praying that God allows the saints to hear our prayers through the medium of the Holy Spirit. If you lacked the ability to respond to veneration of the saints in terms of worshiping God, then, by all means, don't venerate the saints; by the same token, however, do not condemn those of us who do. We are Christians who love Jesus Christ so much that we also show special devotion to his closest followers, especially His Mother Mary. We are told in the Bible that the prayers of the righteous are powerful before God. None of us in the Church Militant are righteous except by the blood of Christ. The saints in heaven are also righteous but only by the blood of Christ. This why, whenever praying to the saints, we also say our prayers in the Name of Jesus Christ. If we ask anything in Jesus' Name, it will be granted. When we pray to the saints, we are effectively asking our Father in Jesus' Name to allow a particular saint the joy of answering our prayer with God's response. If you have a problem with that, then don't venerate the saints. However, you should cease making the assumption that all of us Christians have the same problems that you do. We believe we should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. Go convert people who need converting and leave us Christians alone. I posted a farce on t.r.m. in the not-so-distant past in which I urged all people to become Christians by being Confirmed in the Catholic Faith. As Athansius said, "This then is the Catholic faith without which a man believeth, he cannot be saved." To be a Catholic is to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I do not judge you for becoming a Protestant because I heed the words of my Saviour, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I am a confident Catholic, confident that the promises made to me by the Lord will be fulfilled. Your prattling on about saint worship has been hashed out here so often I've lost count. Jesus said, "It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, but rather what comes out of the mouth that makes one unclean." If you're hung up on venerating saints as equivalent to worship, I'd strongly suggest you cease and desist calling your pastor "Reverend." Both words have the same root. Do you worship your pastor? Is your pastor your god? I hope not. Neither are the saints our gods. I know the difference. Becoming a Protestant was no doubt a good thing for you to do, but please note that not all of us have this conversion prejudice you've been experiencing. (Converts are always the ones who most zealously attack their former religion.) Much ecumenism could be accomplished if people like you were to cease judging, cease attacking, and cease trying to convert Christians to your brand of Protestantism. It isn't all relative. There are certain absolutes. The central tenets of Christianity are expressed in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. "We believe in the resurrection of the body and the life of the world to come. Amen." Christians take this literally. We believe that Mary, Paul, and thousands upon thousands of other saints are living, are _alive_, inside the sacred heart of Jesus. But perhaps you don't believe in devotions to the sacred heart of Jesus either. Look carefully at the primary devotion to Mary: the Rosary. Everytime Mary is mentioned, Jesus is connected with her in some significant way. Examples: First Joyful Mystery, Anunciation, sometimes called the Incarnation. Second Joyful, Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth and the birth of John the Baptist containing prophecies that Mary is blessed above all women because she carries God within her womb; Mary's canticle/prophecy indicating her belief that the promises of God would be fulfilled; Zechariah's canticle/prophecy "God has raised up a horn for our salvation within the house of David his servant." Fourth Joyful, Presentation in the Temple, Circumcision, Purification of Mary and Joseph includes prophecy of Simeon as well as the first time Christ shed his blood. Fifth Joyful, Finding in the Temple of the Boy Jesus; fulfillment of prophecy in Malachi 3:1, "Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; and suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts." Sorrowful Mysteries of the Passion: His prayers and Agony in the Garden of Gethsemene, His Whipping at the Pillar, His Crowning with Thorns, the Way of His Cross, and His Crucifixion and Death. Glorious Mysteries: His Resurrection from the Dead, His Ascension into Heaven, the Descent of His Holy Spirit, the Assumption of Mary (bodily or otherwise, I'm not particular on that point, being an Anglican), and the Coronation of All the Saints and Mary. The last two are the fulfillment of the promises of God. I believe the Bible. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia