Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: brendan@cs.uq.oz.au (Brendan Mahony) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Gay Ordination in the Presbyterian Church Message-ID: Date: 12 Mar 91 09:50:00 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 53 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In arm@neon.stanford.edu (Alexander d Macalalad) writes: >1) Unwanted pregnancies and AIDS do occur within the boundaries of marriage. >(I cannot say anything about "etc".) >2) Unwanted pregnancies and AIDS can effectively be avoided even outside the >boundaries of marriage. (Again, "etc" is a mystery to me.) >Clearly, if your goal is to teach how to avoid unwanted pregnancies and AIDS, >reserve-your-sexuality-for-the-boundaries-of-marriage is the wrong lesson. So you have figures to show that AIDS and un-wanted pregnancies are more likely within Christian marriage than amongst those practicing "safe" sex? If not, you cannot say that this message is wrong, only that you don't want to hear it, that you prefer to hear other messages. >How many times must I have shoved down my throat the message that "AIDS-is- >a-punishment-from-God"? It is not a punishment from God. However the prevalence of AIDS is caused by the unwillingness of people to accept the world as God made it. If you stand near an unstable cliff to see the beautiful view, then it is not a punishment from God if the cliff collapses. It is your own doing, don't blame God for making the beautiful cliff. -- Brendan Mahony | brendan@batserver.cs.uq.oz Department of Computer Science | heretic: someone who disgrees with you University of Queensland | about something neither of you knows Australia | anything about. [Let's step back and start this discussion again -- if you really want to continue it. Alexander's basic comments seemed reasonable: Christians need to be careful about using unwanted pregnancies and AIDS as arguments for Christians sexual ethics. The dangers of these arguments are (1) are these really our justifications? If there's a better way to get rid of AIDS, will we give up our sexual ethics and pursue this way? (2) they can easily lead to an incorrect impression of judgement. While I understand that you don't think God is specifically imposing AIDS as a punishment, this is an impression that Christians have given, and we need to be careful in our presentations to avoid it. On the other hand, I do understand that you intended a somewhat more subtle point than "AIDS-as-a-punishment-from-God." I think it's fine for Christians to point out that Christian ethics do have practical advantages, in that we can identify some dangers that they protect us from. As long as we don't give the impression that that's all they are. Perhaps you can each count to 10 before responding. --clh]