Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Gay Ordination in the Presbyterian Church Message-ID: Date: 13 Mar 91 08:50:44 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 85 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , djohnson@ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes: >>Maybe the PC(USA) had good intentions, but I find it hard to swallow >>considering this passage from I Corinthians: >> >>"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? >>Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor >>adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders ... will inherit >>the kingdom of God." (Chapter 6, vv. 9-10, NIV) > > But then again, a list of other people who won't inherit the kingdom > of God: The rich,[deltions] the tax collectors, the modern form of the > pharisee, those who dishonor their parents.[deletions] In other words, all > have sinned, and none shall inherit the kingdom of God. Pretty harsh? > Well, there's another verse that says through Jesus Christ all things are > possible - so even though we cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it will be > made possible. I don't deny that I am a sinner. I would think that very few of those who oppose ordination of homosexuals feel otherwise. It is by God's grace alone that we are saved. > As a side note, I find it irksome at times that MANY people just love > prioritizing sin, making some "worse" than others. This just isn't > the case. A hateful word spoken to another separates one from God > just as far as being sexually immoral. There are probably some people > who, while refusing a homosexual from entering their church (or state), > applaud a dishonest politician for being "Christian" because they vote > the correct way. And I'm sure one can find recent examples of > churches which ensure that no homosexual is ordained, yet fail to > screen against the "lesser" sins. > -- To a certain point, I agree with this. But the real question is, can we ordain people to the public ministry, who admit their homosexuality and deny that this is sinful? At the very least they are guilty of preaching false doctrine, which would be enough, in my opinion, to justify excommunicating them. I can see where we might ordain a man who admits to homosexuality, confesses that this is sin, and in whom we see evidence of repentance. On the other hand, one would not have to think too hard to find a number of reasons why this would not be advisable. "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to much wine, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgement as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap." --1 Timothy 3:2-7 Generally this passage is regarded as listing the Scriptural qualifications for a pastor. I don't read it as saying that a pastor has to be married, although it certainly speaks against requiring pastors or priests to be celibate. It does say that he must be 'respectable', and of a 'good reputation with outsiders'. I don't see how a christian church can preach what Scripture says about homosexuality, and ordain a homosexual. How can the church regard such a man as 'respectable' and 'having a good reputation with outsiders'? The church that refuses to ordain unrepentant homosexuals is not saying that homosexuality is a worse sin than some others (speeding, for example). It is simply saying that homosexuality is sin and to ordain an admitted, unrepentant homosexual is very poor Christian witness. In fact such ordination disgraces the church. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran and a former Presbyterian. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [In retrospect, I think it's probably a bad idea for those who favor ordination of homosexuals to use the argument that one particular sin is being discriminated against. Generally those who favor ordination of homosexuals do not believe that homosexuality is a sin at all. From the point of view of someone who does believe it is a sin, the unusual thing about ordaining homosexuals is precisely that typically they do not acknowledge it to be a sin. You might ordain an alcoholic, depending upon details of his personal situation. But you probably would not ordain someone who taught that alcoholism is an acceptable Christian lifestyle. This raises interesting issues about the relative importance of practicing and preaching, but I think one could justify this stand. --clh]