Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!bagate!dsinc!cs.widener.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!know!samsung!usc!ucselx!bionet!agate!pasteur!cory.Berkeley.EDU!navas From: navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: Amiga vs. Mac -- convince me... Message-ID: <12006@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> Date: 15 Mar 91 06:03:58 GMT References: <1991Mar11.161412.14449@math.lsa.umich.edu> Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU Reply-To: navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU Lines: 182 In article <1991Mar11.161412.14449@math.lsa.umich.edu> jeremy@math.uic.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes: >I am currently considering purchase of an Amiga 3000 and I have been >following the discussion in .advocacy, as well in .hardware and >.apps, for a couple of weeks. Now I am ready to actively solicit >opinions. You poor sap :) But seriously. >I have extensive UNIX experience (I am typing this on a Sun IPC running >X11 in my office) and I am finally looking to buy a computer for home. >I would like to get something which I can use for my main applications, >while at the same time allowing my kids to have some fun (and maybe >learn something about computers.) I essentially rely on TeX, >Maple, and Emacs at work. I would also like to be able >to do some financial stuff on my home system -- like print checks, >do my taxes, etc. TeX, Maple, and various wonderful text editors are all available on the Amiga. Maple will really cost you from what I hear... I am fearful that the financial side of the scene will be rather sparse -- the good news is that the Amiga will run Mac and/or IBM software, so.... >As I see it, my choices are: > >Apple IIsi/5M RAM/80M hard drive + HP laserjet IIP with appletalk/postscript > (or Apple "Personal Laserwriter NT") > > >Amiga 3000/5M RAM/100M drive + HP laserjet IIP with postscript + >VGA (or better) monitor (I really don't like the way the 1950 looks.) [My Nec 4d works well, and is *mucho* sexier than the 1950. Better be for what I paid for it...] >1. Will Commodore survive in the US? Absolutely. One cannot tell exactly what sorts of things they will be limited to, but Commodore isn't losing money anymore -- their Amiga sales are doing very well, and they've announced two new Un*x configurations, and possibly the A3500 at CeBit, although who can really tell... >2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? If you buy an Amiga3000, you have 48hour in-house warantee. They'll come to *you* -- that's something I haven't heard about from Apple. And it is certainly *not* standard from Apple. >3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've >followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for >example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids >are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school >papers. This is the real limitation of the system. My guess is that software will become rather better with the release of 2.0, but I certainly wouldn't guarantee it. Fortunately you can buy an AT (or an AT card) *extremely* cheaply, and run Microsoft Word on that. Personally, however, I have found ProWrite to be completely adequate for the job of letter writing and school papers. It's not Microsoft Word, but it's not wordstar either... >4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling >to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a >substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has >to be tinkered with endlessly. My A3000 has required *no* tinkering (except the addition of countless Megs of RAM :) :)). My A500 was another story. Many times have I thanked the Lord that AmigaDos != Un*x Of course, you will have the initial curve to overcome, but you have that with any system. (Remember the post from the Mac proponent? "If you had *read* your manual you would have known that 'command-.' cancelled those type of requesters." Command-. indeed! How about the ESC key you nerds...) It also depends on what you want to do. Want to use all the PD stuff? You'll be hacking for sure! Want to use ProWrite?, stick it into the harddrive and away you'll go. Perhaps a good question to ask: who will be using what? You (as the expert) will probably be using the kinds of software that need tinkering to get to work (initially -- not repeatedly as with Unix), whereas your family will have a plug-and-go affair. The Amiga makes more things possible than with the Mac, the Mac makes fewer things a lot easier. The question is can you do away with the things the Mac won't be able to do? >5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, >mice, etc. hold up over time? Mice will have problems if you play games on it that require the leftbutton to be constantly pressed. Guess what? Over time that switch will need a replacement. I've had my A3000 since ~august. It has given me a sum total of *ZERO* problems. If you decide to add memory, you'll have loads of fun taking the system apart. As you might have guessed, a lot of things are really crammed in there -- it's better than taking an A2000 floppy drive assembly apart, but it's not a Mac pop-drop-pop-and play affair either. [Of course, I haven't seen how the IIsi looks...] >And of course anything else you might want to tell me. It seems like you want a system that will do everything for you. Not surprising, so would I. The problem is that such a system does not exist -- so we deal with what we got. The way I looked at it was that I can *program* my system to do what *I* want it to do. I wouldn't even know where to begin with the Mac -- many things are simply counter-intuitive (command-3 saves the screen image to disk, huh???), some are impossible (multi-tasking?) and many things leave me with a dry taste in my mouth (there's no relocation done for absolute addresses -- so they're just ignored??!!!). For my Amiga I wish that half of the PD was polished up, given a decent manual, good user-interfaces and *sold*. I can't imagine why they aren't. Given half a chance things like parNet, DNet, mandelbrot programs in the dozens, scheme, etc. would be decent commercial successes, and would add to the typical user usable base of software. There is a lot to be said for shareware. A lot to be said against it too. Oh well. In sum: Cmdre etc. have a lot to learn about user interfaces, and detailed attention to them -- number of icons on the screen, menu placement, etc. Apple etc. have a lot to learn about making machine architectures and operating systems. Which of these are important and why? Who do you think will make it further faster? Which company will abandon their current line of machines for more profitable ones? Etc. etc. Hard questions that are inevitably best answered by yourself, unfortunately. >Just to prevent my own flame destruction, let me make the following >stipulations about the Amiga: >1. In terms of hardware specifications, it is a better buy than the Mac. Absolutely, without equivocation. >2. I agree that it has a very sophisticated architecture for a PC and that, >particularly for color graphics, it has better performance than the Mac. Mostly true, needs a decent device-independent graphics system -- all things with time. >3. Most importantly to me, it is a relatively open system in comparison >with the Mac. Oh yes! I have just recently been paging through Mac manuals, trying to figure out where I can get *real* technical documentation for it. I have come to the simple conclusion, that even in the hotbed of Mac activity (the Bay Area), there simply isn't any. Lots of guidelines for creating *standard* looking programs, but pretty sparse thereafter. Sad, really -- their user interface is so nice it's a shame they shafted programmer's interface. >4. Apple Computer is a parasite which should be boycotted because of >its anti-competitive lawsuits and its secrecy about its system design >(actually, this point means a lot to me as I have a lot of sympathy with >the FSF, and if you can convince me that Amiga is the way to go you will >help my conscience considerably...) Well, maybe. Maybe Apple just went too far copying Xerox, and ended up copying their lawyer image as well. If we're lucky, they'll stagnate just like Xerox has as well, and better, more innovative designs will make it to the market. >Jeremy Teitelbaum >Math Dept. >U. of Illinois -- Chicago >Chicago, IL 60680 >312-996-2371 Whew, hope that mess helped! Take care, and the best of luck, whichever machine you buy. David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu "Oh, that's an Apple??? I though they just shot themselves in the head..." [Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus]