Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: lums@soggy-fibers.ai.mit.edu (Andrew Lumsdaine) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Is there a God? Message-ID: Date: 14 Mar 91 09:12:58 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: MIT Research Laboratory of Electronics Lines: 69 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu This is a continuation of a previous post in which I replied to Jeff Lindborg's comments about prayer and its role in determining God's existence. In this post, I reply to Jeff Lindborg's comments about changed lives. [ To the moderator -- you can combine the two if you like, but they're both somewhat long, so it may be best to leave them separated. ] Andrew Lumsdaine says: [ Although God's existence may be undecidable, there is good reason to include it in one's belief system because it seems to correspond more closely to reality. The reasons cited are: changed lives, answered prayer, and the evidence of absolute morality. ] In reply, Jeff Lindborg says: [ Regarding changed lives: ] >Of course I must note that people who submit to other religions and >systems of belief also undergo discernable change in their lives. I >personaly know two individuals who underwent tremendous change when >they started practicing Buddhism. I'm sure new adherents to other >religions also experience a change in their lives, obviously. This >does not, however, prove the validity or inherent truth of these >religions. It just proves that they are effective at modifying human >behavior for one reason or another. By changes, I meant positive changes -- I assume that's what you mean as well. Please take what I said in all of its context. I did not say that changed lives prove the existence of God. I said that the existence of God may be undecidable, but that a belief system including God's existence corresponds more closely with reality. One evidence of this correspondence -- for me, at least -- is the positive changes in the lives of Christians that I know, myself included. One of the fundamental effects of Christianity is that Christians' lives will be changed -- they are supposed to be changed, and for the better. When I see the changes occur, just as they are supposed to occur, it makes me think there could be something to Christianity and to all this talk about God. Furthermore, as far as I can determine, the changes stemming from Christianity are absolutely the correct ones. Christians are to love our neighbors as ourselves, we are to love our enemies, we are to be like Christ. Now, to nip any ad hominem attacks in the bud -- I realize that not every Christian is going to fully exhibit these qualities. But the question one has to ask is not: "Is Christian A a nicer person than Agnostic B?" Rather, one should ask: "Is Christian A a nicer person than he or she used to be?" Or better yet: "Is Christian A a nicer person than he or she would have been if he or she were not a Christian?" That's not as easy a question to answer as it might seem. You certainly cannot pick some public or historical figure and say, "Look at so-and-so." Neither you nor I know that person well enough to say anything about the role true role of Christianity in his or her life. About people you know personally, well, you have to answer the questions for yourself. I have answered them for myself and seen it as supporting evidence that God exists and that Christianity is true. It's not the only evidence and certainly not a definitive proof, but it compels me. Again, I express my regret that we don't know each other, that you will probably never be able to appreciate my experiences, and I will probably never be able to appreciate yours. Regards, Andrew Andrew Lumsdaine "We don't understand the software, and lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu sometimes we don't understand the hardware, MIT RLE but we can *see* the blinking lights!"