Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Deity of Jesus Christ Message-ID: Date: 18 Mar 91 16:50:58 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 107 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Gene Gross writes: >Now, I'd like to take you to several other passages that I believe help >establish not only the deity of Jesus as God the Son, but also help to >establish the Trinity. > >First, turn to Genesis 18:1-2. [.. account deleted ..] >By itself, this account does not prove the Trinity doctrine. Still, at >the very least, it clearly demonstrates that it is possible for God to >manifest Himself as three-in-one. Whoa! John 1:18 (KJV) "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son ["only-born God" in revised translations], which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." I think we would do well to understand the way names were used and applied in the world of the ancient Hebrews. In our culture we are accustomed to a separate names for separate entities. In Hebrew culture a person who represented someone else took on that person's name. This was just as true with God's name (YHVH) as for the name of a king, leader, ruler, etc. For example, when a person appeared before a Hebrew court, they addressed the judge(s) as "Yes God, no God", because the judge(s) represented God. A modern parallel is to address judges as "Your Worship" or "Your Honour". The Most High God (God the Father) never interacted directly (that is, in first person) with humans in the OT. He always dealt with humanity through an intermediary (or intermediaries, plural). The chief intermediary was the manifested Logos who became the Jesus Christ of the NT. As the Father's representative, the Logos took on and was known by the name YHVH. The Logos was also known as the "Angel of YHVH", the "Angel of Redemption", the "Angel of the Presence (of God)", the "Face of God", among other things. To see, hear the Logos was to see and hear the Most High God (cf Jesus' statement, "he who has seen me has seen the Father"). There are numerous passages in the OT dealing with this arrangement: Gen 16:7-13 Hagar deals with the Angel of YHVH, and calls him the YHVH who spoke to her. Gen 31:11-13 Jacob experiences a dream where the Angel of God says that he is the God of Bethel. Gen 32:24-30; 48:15-16; Hos 12:2-4 Jacob wrestles with "God" whom he identifies as the "Angel of Redemption" Ex 3:2-7,16 The Angel of YHVH speaks to Moses and is then quoted in first person as YHVH. Moses is told to tell Israel that YHVH Elohim appeared to him even though he saw the Angel of YHVH. Ex 13:21;14:19,24; Is 63:8-12 YHVH leads Israel and is in pillar of cloud, yet the Angel of YHVH is in the pillar of cloud and saves them. Note that Angel of YHVH seems to be equated to the Arm of God, a title also given to Jesus in the NT. Ex 23:20-23;32:34;33:14-15; Deut 1:30-33 YHVH's Angel is equated with YHVH's presence and is to lead Israel into Canaan; YHVH's name (which in Hebrew terminology was equivalent to power, authority, and person) is in the Angel; YHVH led Israel and will them into Promised Land. Judges 2:1-4 The Angel of YHVH appears to Israel and tells them that he made a covenant with them. Note the parallel to Malachi 3:1 where the Messenger (Angel) of the Covenant is prophesied to come to his Temple. Judges 6:11-23 Gideon sees the Angel of YHVH who is equated with YHVH. Your cite from Genesis 18-19 is simply a further example. Note that in 19:1 the two men are called "angels" (or messengers). With due respect, the concept that Abraham saw the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that two of them then went off to see Lot, is erroneous. A clear chain of authority is evident within the Godhead. The Logos (Son) is under the Father's rulership. Zechariah contains some interesting passages where both the Most High and the Logos are spoken of as YHVH. The Most High is YHVH of Hosts, and the Logos, YHVH: Zech 2:5-11 YHVH says he is coming to dwell in Jerusalem, and when this happens people shall know that YHVH of Hosts has sent him. Zech 13:7 YHVH of Hosts refers to the "Man who is my Companion" as the shepherd to be smited. Zech 14 This chapter speaks of the return of YHVH and his kingship over the earth which is also same as YHVH of Host's kingship over the earth. Parallels are seen in Psalm 2. Israel understood that the God who dealt with them directly (Logos) was under the authority of the Most High God: Ps 110; 45:6-7 David, here refering to YHVH (of Hosts) acknowledges as being over David's Adonai (Lord). Ps 45:7 Cited of Christ in the New Testament. "Therefore God, your God has annointed you ..." I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea. Perhaps I should add that the term most often translated "angel" in the OT simply means "messenger", and therefore when the Logos was called the "Angel of YHVH" we could say he was the "Messenger of YHVH (Most High)". Lastly, you noted in another post that the Jews used Memra for YHVH God in the OT. They also used it for the Angel of YHVH. When one understands the connections, it becomes clear why. Drew Corrigan. (drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au)