Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!zardoz.cpd.com!dhw68k!david From: david@dhw68k.cts.com (David H. Wolfskill) Newsgroups: comp.org.usenix Subject: Re: Are Undergrads, more valuable then working professionals? Summary: Premise questioned; LONG rambling article! Keywords: Controversy, Policy, Stipend. Message-ID: <1991Mar22.152340.7836@dhw68k.cts.com> Date: 22 Mar 91 15:23:40 GMT References: <1991Mar14.001156.15961@grebyn.com> Organization: Wolfskill & Dowling residence; Anaheim, CA (USA) Lines: 122 In article <1991Mar14.001156.15961@grebyn.com> pat@grebyn.com (Pat Bahn) writes: >Question: Are Undergrads more valuable then working professionals? >Answer: Yes, at least according to Usenix policy.... >Now, if one is a working professional, and currently without an >employer, as far as Usenix is concerned, you are SOL... Based on the thrust of the later parts of the posting, it seems reasonable to interpret the above "currently without an employer" as "currently without employment" -- perhaps a subtle distinction. However, I confess to a certain amount of puzzlement in attempting to reconcile how someone who is currently without employment might be considered a *working* professional. (No, I'm not trying to be especially obtuse; it may be argued that I do so naturally anyhow, though.... :-) >Of course, I believe this policy implies that people who have left >academia of course have no debts, make a big or regular salary and can >afford this as a pofessional expense. Well, you're entitled to the opinion -- but I fail to understand how you arrived at it. >Now if one is without a job, typically, you don't have that much >survival time until homelessness occurs. hence job hunting is >important. Sure it is; no argument there. The net can be a very useful resource for a lot less money -- I have been giving away accounts on this machine. (Sorry, the filesystem where folks have their personal files is quite full, so I'm not accepting new requests until that's changed.) >Usenix provides a place for people to network and hear of opportunities, >as well as brush up technical skills by listening to papers as well >as attending tutorials. As for the ability to "network" (I confess to a certain discomfort in thinking of "to network" as a verb), I suggest that a conference tends to emphasize synchronous communication, while media such as the net emphasize asynchronous communication. (That is, for the former, the parties involved need to be devoting resources to the communication at the same time, while with the latter, there is a "time ordering" constraint, but the resources need not be devoted at the same time.) I suggest that asynchronous communication allows one to involve more parties with a given amount of effort -- which would seem ideal for job-hunting. Also, the conference proceedings are available even to folks who don't make it to USENIX -- fortunately for me: I happen to have regular employment (for which I am thankful)... but it has nothing whatsoever to do with UNIX or USENIX. This machine (that I am using now) is our (my wife's & mine) personal machine; I bought its original incarnation in late 1984 because I believed then that it would probably be useful for me to have unrestricted access to a machine that could run a "real" operating system, have access to USENET, and allow me to learn some C and UNIX. Although my employment then (and employment now -- different employer, similar work -- I call it "migrant labor" :-) does not involve UNIX, I have not regretted the decision. I fully expect that at some point in the (not-too-distant) future, some of the knowledge I have thus gained will be put to good use for an employer. (Indeed, I have been able to point out a few things to colleagues, based on information I've picked up -- some of it even from the net...!) In any case, I joined /usr/group (which now calls itself "UniForum") and USENIX -- largely because I perceived that much of what they were doing was generally good. (BTW, "kudos" to the USENIX board -- I continue to be impressed by the things you are able to accomplish... publishing the BSD manuals, getting UUNET started, and publishing Computing Systems come immediately to mind.) I am able to attend USENIX only when it's in Anaheim (the convention center is about halfway between home & work) -- and then I took vacation time to do it. Even if the USENIX Assn. were to allow me to attend absolutely free, I wouldn't be able to attend elsewhere -- what with travel, food, & lodging expense -- without going through a lot more hassle than I have time for (except maybe SF Bay area -- my parents live in Pacifica). >I propose that Usenix offer a 50% discount to unemployed attendees. >Pros: It's socially responsible, it keeps people in the business and > it won't cost much. Saying "it won't cost much" is one thing; backing this up with figures is another. I'd prefer to work with the numbers before making a judgement. Putting on a conference involves real money, which must come from somewhere. >Cons: It creates a job hunting environment, it's hard to administer > it may cost us revenue base. Indeed; if a "job hunting environment" is created, more employers may well be less inclined to send folks. Some conferences explicitly discourage such activity for this (stated) reason. >I guess, we would have to use thehonor system, but are we not a >community that implicityly trusts one another? Probably less so as time passes.... :-} >Well, what does the community think? and what odes the board think? This part of the community thinks that it's probably a good thing that you brought up the issue; however, I also think that those involved in the issue should take a giant step back & re-analyze what is the problem that you are attempting to address, whether or not it is reasonably the job of the USENIX Assn. to address the problem, and if so, how we might do so. Hope there's enough useful up there to make it worth reading, david -- David H. Wolfskill uucp: ...{spsd,zardoz,felix}!dhw68k!david InterNet: david@dhw68k.cts.com CompuServe: >internet:david@dhw68k.cts.com