Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: henning@acsu.buffalo.edu (Karl isochronal Henning) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: sex, marriage, sin Message-ID: Date: 20 Mar 91 08:54:35 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: SUNY Buffalo Lines: 101 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Tim ARNOLD writes: >Jeff Fields writes: >>I personally know non-promiscous monogamous couples who would die for each >>other their love is so strong. They make sexual love, but are not married. >>I see no sin in this. >Who cares whether you see sin in it or not? The crucial question is does God? Am I the only person on the net to read Tim's response as a self-righteous snub? Tim, I take it you know no such couples, or that if you do you criticize them with as little delicacy as this your response evinces? Well, this is certainly a lesson in love ... Although it is up to Mr Fields to account for his own phrasing, I interpreted it as a tactful way of expressing an opinion, of acceding that there is room for discussion. Tact is something of which I would not accuse Mr Arnold in his response; and there hardly seems room for discussion in Mr Arnold's world. >>We should not hasten in our pronouncements of sin based solely on outward >>social appearances. >Unless of course the Bible is quite clear on the matter ... The bible is "quite clear" on relatively little; and there are few truly "objective tests" regarding the reception of texts of the bible popular among practicing xians (IMHO). >... We should be reluctant to play God but never-the-less >there are some objective tests which require our attention and rebuke >of those who profess to be following Christ but deny his commands. "A controversial group of biblical scholars has concluded six years of voting by ruling that about 80 percent of the words attributed in the Gospels to Jesus were probably made up by later authors." One ought to be particularly reluctant to play god, when there is such question as to what may realistically be attributed to jesus, as this extract from a news article indicates. Certainly, different people interpret the bible differently, and perhaps with no less justification. I grant that the above news item does not mean that the matter is sealed, and it does say "controversial"; but it is at least possible that "a group of biblical scholars" is more in a position to judge, than the average layman. >... as a Christian I can boldly say that sexual activity outside of >marriage will lead to more suffering than if it is avoided because >God gave us his laws for a reason and I trust God's judgment better >than I trust my own. But then, you are not speaking from experience, I take it? As someone who observes life as it surrounds me, rather than choose to read it in a book and then try to squeeze the life around me into that dubious mold, I can boldly say: MARRIAGE (or any close relationship) will lead to more "suffering" than if it is avoided. When one maintains any long-term relationship, differences of opinion will inevitably arise, and some of these inevitable disagreements will likely prove painful. So what? It happens to everybody, and the alternative is isolation and loneliness -- no, /realistically/ the alternative is social ineptitude, which entails its own particular "suffering". When somebody bangs his shin, we hope he hasn't broken anything (or send him to a doctor if we think he has), and know the pain will pass; we don't coddle him. Why do people suppose that interpersonal "pains" are any more "precious", and need to be spoilt? You may put off learning how to ride a bicycle, if you're afraid of getting scuffed up; it won't make it any easier to learn how, if/when you finally decide to brave the ordeal. You may put off learning how to discuss sex (itself, how it applies to your own sensory experience, how it affects the other ways people interact socially), or even (gasp) put off Applied (as well as Theoretical) Sex, until some "marriage" with Mr or Ms Right; but the "growing pains" involved in learning one's way in such a relationship are no more intrinsically soul-rarefying than riding a bicycle. Until one drags in the matter of conscience, of course. But it is a very different question, whether one has offended a fellow human, or offended a god. Of course, if you adopt certain opinions for yourself, and feel that these reflect "god's will" -- if that gives you more confidence in this educative experience, good for you. kph -- "The shrewder mobs of America, who dislike having two minds upon a subject, both determine and act upon it drunk; by which means a world of cold and tedious speculation is dispensed with." -- Washington Irving