Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: DEATH & HELL-7 - THIEF ON CROSS Message-ID: Date: 22 Mar 91 04:06:47 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 153 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: You have some interesting ideas, but I want to comment on a few things: > Jesus really did die: Matt 12:40; Acts 2:24,31; 10:39,40; 1 Cor 15:3,4. > Read carefully Matt 27:62-66 -- the Pharisees were concerned that the disci- > ples would steal Him away before the 3'd day and then claim a resurrection. > Jesus really did die a full and complete death and rested over the Sabbath. Yes, Jesus really did die. > 3) - If it was His spirit that went sprinting off to paradise, then why > could He not have simply returned to His body when the time came? Reading > the story of the resurrection of Lazarus it is clear that He had the power > of resurrection and so could have resurrected Himself. But the Bible states > that it was the Holy Spirit that brought Him back to life (Rom 8:11; Acts > 2:24; 10:40; 1 Peter 3:18). If Jesus spent the week-end as a spirit there > would have been no need for the Holy Spirit to bring Him back to life. His > own 'spirit' could have simply returned to His body. Meditate on this verse for a while: "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19. "That if you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9. Thus in one place, Jesus spoke of raising himself from the dead, yet elsewhere this act is attrubuted to God. This is one part of the evidence that Jesus is God. A good question to ask at this point is: did God die on the cross? No, God cannot die. But in the person of Jesus God did experience death. > From these texts I see that Paradise is Heaven - Heaven where God is (Rev > 2:7). The first heaven, since it will be destroyed with the sea, must be > the heaven where the birds fly, the same heaven spoken of in Genesis during > creation week. The second heaven is where the stars and planets are. The > third heaven, paradise, is where God is. And we read earlier that the > wicked are reserved for the day of judgement (not for 'soul prison'). Jesus > simply told the 'Good Thief' that someday, after the resurrection, they > would meet again in the third heaven where God and paradise are located. This is basically the correct interpretation of "the third heaven" that Paul spoke of in 2 Cor. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept your theory about the thief, however. > Jesus dying agony was "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus > died, not knowing that His life and death had been sufficient. That was > part of the torment that broke His heart. He died with the full weight of > our sins upon Him, with no last minute assurance of victory. For all He > knew, the 2nd death was closing in upon Him. Here I simply have to disagree with you. He certainly did know that his life and death had been sufficient for the salvation of all men, for he also said 'It is finished.' For a little more context, lets look at John 19: 28-30: "Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, 'I am thirsty.' A jar of vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." > All His life, Jesus and His Father were in close harmony and constantly in > touch. This was the secret of His purity and His perfect life. The only > instance where there was any separation from His Father was just before He > died. If God had continued to linger near, Jesus could not have died, just > as Lazarus could not have died if Jesus had not dallied on the way to his > bedside. So, in those last awful minutes, instead of a voice from heaven > assuring Him of victory, His Father pulled away so that He could die. In > the end He bore our sins alone, looking out on a world that seemed to be in > contempt of His sacrifice, and in that final hour, not having the assurance > that His sacrifice was even acceptable to God. Being separated from his Father was an important part of Jesus' suffering. Yet as I have explained, he certainly did know that his sacrifice was acceptable. As to whether Jesus could have died without being separated from his Father, I think that you may be right, but you are touching on one of the more difficult mysteries of the Christian faith which are simply not answerable this side of judgement day. > So, They must have been eager, after the resurrection, to confirm His sacri- > fice. Sunday, Jesus said He had not yet ascended to His Father. Certainly, > if separation from His Father was His dying agony then a re-union after the > resurrection would have been a very very high priority. If Jesus had a > conscious 'soul' capable of going somewhere; then a top priority would be to > check things out with God in Paradise and so no need to say what He dis- > tinctly said Sunday morning. No way, Jesus did not go to any "Paradise" on > Friday. He still had not ascended to His Father on Sunday morning. He had not yet ascended to His Father *bodily*. That took place at his ascenscion. He told Mary Magdalene not to hold on to his body, presumably because he was not about to start reigning as an earthly king, but would ascend to heaven to live and reign over a spiritual kingdom, his church. > 7) - What about all the prophecies that said Jesus would be in the tomb for > three days - three days by Jewish reckoning. Jesus explained these texts, > making it clear that He really would be dead. Do we make Jesus a false pro- > phet by sending His 'spirit' off to preach to souls in prison? Does someone > wish to argue that this little trip was a surprise that He learned about > late Friday afternoon just before He talked to the thief? Then why did he > explain the same prophecies again after Sunday morning. Clearly He had no > knowledge of zipping around as a spirit that week-end. Does anyone wish to > make Him out to be a liar? Did Jesus high tail if off to preach a sermon to > a crowd in prison, including the thief on the cross? Then come back to His > body and say nothing at all about it? No! Hardly! His body certainly lay in the grave during that time. To human eyes, he was certainly dead during the three days an rose again on the third. Why should the prophecies complicate matters by speaking of the preaching to the spirits in prison. That he did preach to the spirits in prison is made clear in 1 Peter 3:18-20. I am willing to talk about what this preaching means, and when it happened, in a reasonable way, on the basis of Scripture. But the truth is that this is one of the more difficult passages in Scripture to understand, and we don't really know that much about it. If you want to see how difficult, go look in Eerdman's Pulpit Commentary. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "Upon the cross extended, See, world. Thy Lord suspended, Thy Savior yields his breath. The Prince of Life from heaven Himself hath freely given. To shame and blows and bitter death. "Come hither now and ponder, 'Twill fill thy soul with wonder, Blood streams from every pore. Through grief whose depth none knoweth, From His great heart there floweth Sigh after sigh af anguish o'er. "Who is it that hath bruised Thee? Who hath so sore abused Thee And caused Thee all Thy woe? While we must make confession Of sin and dire trasgression Thou deeds of evil dost not know. "I caused Thy grief and sighing By evils multiplying As countless as the sands. I caused the woes unnumbered With which Thy soul is cumbered, Thy sorrows raised by wicked hands." --"O Welt, sieh hier dein Leben", v. 1-4 --Paul Gerhardt, 1648. --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #171 My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.