Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!apple!veritas!amdcad!amdcad!military From: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) Newsgroups: sci.military Subject: Re: Stealth Boats Message-ID: <1991Mar28.033328.3992@amd.com> Date: 27 Mar 91 15:34:46 GMT References: <1991Mar27.051519.23104@amd.com> Sender: military@amd.com Organization: David Taylor Research Center, Bethesda, MD Lines: 87 Approved: military@amd.com From: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) >The rest of the world is going to figure out that a few diesel-electric >subs can easily mess up the operations of an entire U.S. surface fleet. >And mess up supply from the States. Three major disadvantages of the diesel-electric subs are: 1) they have limited combat range due to limited fuel tank capacity; 2) they need to surface regularly to recharge batteries; 3) they need to stay near home ports to refuel and resupply. When they surface, or when they return to their home ports, they become sitting ducks .... Several countries are building diesel-electric subs mainly for coastal defense, which is okay. It does not necessarily mean that they will be as deadly as our attack submarines. Building a submarine is one thing; building electronic equipment necessary to track and attack targets is another thing. Building a diesel-electric submarine to rival our nuclear attack submarines capable of stalking underwater "indefinitely" and capable of tracking and destroying enemy ships/submarines is still another thing. Training the submarine crew into a fighting team is still another thing. >The Germans are working on new conventional subs that are more quite and >cheaper then our nuclear ones. There is an old saying, "You get what you pay for it." >Soon they'll export those and we'll have a trillion dollar ineffective >surface navy! Not necessarily. The submarine's greatest enemy are destroyers and aircrafts. Our anti-submarine patrol planes (P-3s) can cover a large area of water searching for submarines in a short time and carry Harpoons, torpedoes, depth bombs, and rockets to blow the subs out of water. The destroyers wait in a game of cat and mouse, knowing that the diesel-electric submarine will have to come up sooner or later to recharge (sub batteries last about 8 hours, depending on the speed). When the sub's batteries are nearly "drained," the sub had better run fast for its dear life on the surface with all those destroyers, anti-submarine, and attack planes swarming all over! The sub's home port is vulnerable to aerial attacks, too. Once its home port is destroyed, the sub is practically finished. >All Iraq needed was a a small sub fleet and we would have been >sucking all across the Atlantic. What makes you think that an Iraqi submarine (if Iraq had one) could accomplish anything that the rest of the Iraqi Navy couldn't? The Iraqi Navy was, for all practical purposes, wiped out early in the Gulf War. >There are very effective cheap subs available, like the ones Israel >is buying from Germany, and soon they'll be all over the world. Israel has only 3 active patrol submarines, with 2 planned/building. Their speed is 11 knots surfaced and 17 knots dived. Not very fast. They carry 10 Sub Harpoons/torpedoes. Only America's friends get the Harpoon missiles. >Look at the North Korean Navy -- subs can keep us from resupplying the >South in an invasion or from any Inchon landing. North Korea has 22 patrol submarines (old Russian submarines) and 42 midget submarines. These patrol submarines have no anti-submarine performance or potential. North Korea's air force is inferior to ours, and will go fast early in the battle like the Iraqi Air Force. Then the North Korean Navy will fall next when its home ports are destroyed. >All you need is a Submarine navy and a well organized mine laying >operation and you can put surface fleets out! In order for a submarine navy to be effective, you need a large number of submarines. That's because about 1/3 of the submarines will be on patrol, 1/3 in shipyard for repair/service, and 1/3 on way to or from patrol areas. (Note: this applies to the American and German's submarine forces; I am not sure how this would apply to the coastal defense submarines) Neither does Israel nor North Korea have a sizeable submarine force. I can't argue about the effectiveness of the mines. But you can't have both large minefields and an effective submarine force in any small body of water; your submarine might become victim of your own minefield.