Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!wuarchive!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Sexism in the church?? (was: Re: Gay Ordination) Message-ID: Date: 27 Mar 91 03:43:13 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of NC at Charlotte Lines: 104 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , carlson@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes: > In article JMS111@psuvm.psu.edu (Jenni Sheehey) writes: > > > >Anyway, the point of this is: Do other Christian women feel that > >they are being treated in a less loving way because of their gender? > >Is this happening within Christian circles, out of Christian circles, > >or both? (You will notice that I said "In a a less loving way", not > >"differently". That was not an accident, because it's possible to > >treat someone differently, but treat them as well, IMHO) > > > >Comments? Opinions? > > --Jenni > > Yes, some Christian women feel that they are treated less than lovingly > because of their gender. This has been particularly true of late in my > own denomination (Southern Baptist). The subject of women's ordination > > Ann B. Carlson IMHO, the Bible does not hold men and women equal in every respect, but it does such in a functional matter, not in a sexist manner. For example, the Bible says that a MAN shall leave his father and mother and cling unto his wife. It does not say that a WOMAN should separate from her parents in the same manner that a man should. As a women, I find this interpretation to be just fabulous. As a married women in a society where men usually have been and still are the main family breadwinners, I think that it is of utmost important that the breadwinner, (usually the man), learn how to stand on his own feet and support his own family instead of depending on mommy and daddy. As far as the sexism part is concerned, again, I believe that the Bible is not sexist. Yet, as Ann Carlson pointed out, many church folks have twisted the Bible to fit their own social ideals. Yes, it is true that Southern Babtist do not allow women to minister in the same capacity as men. After attending Southern Babtist churches over 20 years, I have never heard any Baptist women preach a sermon to a congregation. The women "pastors" in the church may lead in scripture reading and prayer, but that is about as far as it goes. One day I got on an independent trane of thought, and realized that the Bible says "sons and DAUGHTERS shall prophecy." And, I realized that there were even women prophets, such as Anna. So, I questioned one of the leaders in my church, "If women recieve prophecies from God, are they supposed to shut up and not tell about them just because they are women?" The answer was sort of a mixed reaction. For this reason, and especially for the Southern Baptists' attitude towards the latest war in the Persian Gulf (is Saadam the anti-Christ, etc.) I have grow increasingly discouraged with the "policies" of Southern Babtist, and have started looking either for another church, or for another denomination. As hypocritical as it may sound (and may even be), it practically violates my conscious to attend services at my old church, especially when I have the option to attend churches elsewhere. Any comments? Elizabeth [As far as Biblical precedent is concerned, it appears that whatever restrictions Paul might have had in mind about the role of women, he did envision at least some speaking in worship and some leadership. E.g. 1 Cor 11 says that women should cover their head when praying or prophesying, which seems to imply that they do prophesy. Similarly, the lists at the end of Paul's letters include a lot of apparent female leaders, including Rom 16:1, which names Phoebe as a deacon. I Tim 3:11 seems to give qualifications for female deacons (though it could also be qualifications for the wife of a deacon -- unfortunately, the same word can mean both woman and wife). and Tit 2:3 sees women (the word is actually the female form of presbyter, which could mean simply older women or could be talking about female elders as a more formal title) as teachers at least of other women. Calvin's favorite example was Huldah. When workmen found a book of the Law in the temple, note that it was a female prophet that they went to for a ruling on its validity. 2 King 22:14. As I'm sure you know, there's a split within the Church about whether we need to limit women to specific roles prescribed for them in the NT. But it seems to me fairly clear that even if we take the most restricted view, the Bible does accept the concept of women receiving revelations. And I'd say it accepts some level of leadership, at least of other women. Part of it depends upon what you make of Paul's insistence that women's role includes submission. In I Cor 11 it seems a somewhat formal acknowledgement. That is, they pray and prophesy just like the men, but cover their heads as a sign of authority. I've seen suggestions that I Tim 2:12 should be translated as saying that no wife should have authority over her husband. (This again depends upon whether you translate terms as man and woman or husband and wife.) In that case, the point would be that any public role of women should not compromise their relationship to their busband. Even I Cor 14:34, which is about the most general restriction on women, points directly to the relationship between husband and wife. (I should note that Gordon Fee has made an interesting argument -- based on the fact that I Cor 14:34-35 comes in two different places in different manuscripts -- that those verses are a later addition. However my guess is that those people for whom the NT role is relevant are not likely to accept such textual analyses.) There is clearly disagreement in this area, which I do not expect to get rid of here. But I don't think there's any question that women can receive revelations from God and that they are expected to say something about it. The question seems to be not about whether they hear from God, but about exactly what formal roles and authority it is appropriate for them to have. --clh]