Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: starpath@falseface.mit.edu (David E. Hollingsworth) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Demon survey results Message-ID: Date: 27 Mar 91 04:38:05 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 77 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , psburns@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) writes: |> My heart breaks when I look at the results of this survey and I see so many |> respondents claim to be Christians (at least they claim association with |> some denomination) yet the majority of them do not believe in the existence |> of Satan or hell as is portrayed in Scripture, and for that matter, deny |> the perfection and inerrancy of the Bible as the authoritative Word of God. I was saddened by the statistics as well, but for quite the opposite reason; that is, people still feel that they need to perpetuate "The Threat"-- that is, you must cooperate with the church or burn forever. To claim that scriptural references to hell cannot be taken metaphorically (after all, even those that view the hell concept as literally real must use reference to Gehenna metaphorically--to extend the metaphor is not beyond reason) brings us back to "my beliefs are better than your beliefs"; an argument that tends to puff up egos and inhibit the kind of communication leads to searching for truth. This attitude is portrayed very well by casting doubt on other's Christianity, simply because they don't share some beliefs that you have. While I must admit that I'm not very knowledgable about such things, I can't remember a single instance of Jesus saying, "You must believe in hellfire and sulfurous fumes and eternal damnation to enter the kingdom of heaven." I presume that the reason that you come to the conclusion that these people (of which I am a member) are unChristian is that you believe that they are contradicting the Word of God, and because "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters." (Matthew 12:30), these people therefore cannot be part of the assembly to which to attribute your membership to; ie, they are not Christian. I want to understand what has caused you to come to these conclusions. I hope that you have been reading David Buxton's DEATH & HELL postings; it is certainly NOT obvious that the conclusions that you have come to are the only reasonable conclusions. (I am not in complete agreement with those postings either, but I'm not denying their reasonability.) |> Proverb 30:5,6---"Every word of God is flawless. It is a shield to those |> who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His word or He will rebuke you and |> prove you to be liar." Nobody is denying that "every word of God is flawless;" the question is, rather, is this book that I refer to as "the Bible" literally the "Word of God"? That is, did God influence the writers, the translators, the transcribers, the printers, the committees to decide canonical form, and you as the reader enough so that what He wants you to know, you will understand? If so, then I must admit that some of us have been doing something quite wrong when we come to conclusions that are different from the traditional norm! (Whether such different conclusions are important enough to judge if a person is Christian or not is an entirely different question.) It is a bootstrapping problem: if you believe that the Bible is the "Word of God" and not simply a God-inspired book from man, then it's quite easy to justify your beliefs scripturally. However, it is also true that if you believe that the Bible is God-inspired, but not God-manipulated, then it is as well quite possible to justify your beliefs scripturally. (I am not saying that they are both _correct_ justifications, just that one can try to justify each, and do a reasonable job at it.) |> So many of the responses were so far off base scripturally! It's no wonder |> that there is confusion, disillusionment and heartache in the world. I'm not sure that you can attribute the world's problems to a lack of belief in a hell or Satan. Rather, people will tend to be unhappy if they believe that a supernatural being is going to cause them harm until they are dead, I'm glad that you have a defined set of beliefs, but I certainly hope that you don't really think that your own beliefs are infallible,.. |> Maureen David E. Hollingsworth starpath@athena.mit.edu