Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: at the last moment Message-ID: Date: 2 Apr 91 08:34:22 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 117 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article MAS139@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >>Why not go for the gusto and then repent at the last minute, (right?) >>Well, it *might* work, but if you're going to try this approach, be sure >>and die a slow death, (crucifixion is ideal), so that you'll have time >>to repent. Death by explosion for instance would blow your plans all to >>H*** ;-). > > This has been the only reason I've received for not putting off > salvation. I've read several passes in the Christian bible detail- > after life experiences. So it seems that you must accept Christ > while the flesh is still alive which I find inconsistant with > the "the body is merely a home for the soul" sense emanating from > Christianity. Well, we look at heaven and hell as an afterlife right? Accepting Christ is an act of faith. If you are dead, and your spirit has gone on (presuamably to Hell), you can't very well accept faith in the afterlife at this point. (You have *proof* and proof denies faith.) So, yes I'd kinda draw the line at the point of death. (Which was what your original question was about after all). > It also quantifies decisions made by our "eternal spirits" to be > made in the mortal sense of time that it requires for the brain to > cease functioning. Once again, it seems to me that once you find yourself an "eternal spirit" no longer linked to your body that proof of something beyond (shall we say) "our frame of reference". >>If you were the sort of person who made plans like this though I kind of >>doubt that your last moment conversion would be sincere. > > Yes but that would be between God and myself am I right? We have no > proof that the robber was sincere. > Would it be safe to say that even though you and I have no way of knowing the robber's sincerity that Jesus (being godly) did? (We have no way of *knowing* that Jesus followed through on his promise either ;-) It's a matter of faith.) >>Your complaint is not new, (it even predates the robber on the cross). >>Check out the older son in "The Prodigal Son". Check out the workers in >>the vineyard who complained about the latecomers getting the same wage. >>"It just isn't fair!" we all cry! No, says God, you've got it wrong. >>None of you deserve Heaven, so don't be surprised if the "undeserving" >>get in with the "more deserving". > > This has nothing to do with the last moment situation. Reread what > you have written. If this were the same situation then all the > previously saved people would be complaining about the robber > getting saved at the last moment, which I believe is used to > represent something beautiful in the Christian faith. I don't see your complaint. As I understood your original statement you asked what the motivation was for being saved if you could be saved at the last moment (as the robber on the cross was). I compare this to the laborers in the field who might well have said. "Well, if I'd known I'd get paid the same no matter, I wouldn't have come the first two times you called!" By his parables, Jesus points out that people *will* see this as unjust. But yes, the robber on the cross is just one example of Jesus' uncommon attitude towards sinners. I see the saving of the robber on the cross however as being because of his faith. Luke 23:39-43 39 One of the criminals hanging there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" 40 The other one, however, rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God? You received the same sentence he did. 41 Ours, however, is only right, because we are getting what we deserve for what we did; but he has done no wrong." 42 And he said to Jesus, "Remember me, Jesus, when you come as King!" 43 Jesus said to him, "I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me." (TEV) How many times in the Gospels does Jesus commend/reward someone's faith? Remember the roman officer in Luke 7:6-10 6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the officer sent friends to tell him, "Sir, don't trouble yourself. I do not deserve to have you come into my house, 7 neither do I consider myself worthy to come to you in person. Just give the order, and my servant will get well. 8 I, too, am a man placed under the authority of superior officers, and I have soldiers under me. I order this one, `Go!' and he goes; I order that one, `Come!' and he comes; and I order my slave, `Do this!' and he does it." 9 Jesus was surprised when he heard this; he turned around and said to the crowd following him, "I tell you, I have never found faith like this, not even in Israel!" 10 The messengers went back to the officer's house and found his servant well. (TEV) It is the officer's faith Jesus rewards. He doesn't need to see Jesus heal the man in person. He doesn't need to even see Jesus. He believes in Jesus' authority. This theme comes up repeatedly. >>We don't earn our way into God's love through good works. Our good >>works are a response to God's love for us. (Got it?) ;-) > > But you can do good works and still not believe in God. > Or are you saying everything done by cultures never exposed to > Christianity was not good? Yes, you can do good works and not believe in God. I don't see any conflict there. What I am saying is that good works cannot earn God's love. If you believe in God, you may do good works in response to God's love, (you believe it is right to do so.) If you do not believe in God, you can do good works simply because you believe it is right to do so. Even at times when my faith fails me, I still believe in doing good works, not for a reward, but because it is the right thing to do. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton