Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!mintaka!spdcc!tauxersvilli!alphalpha!nazgul From: nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo Subject: Re: The Hardy Few Message-ID: <1991Apr5.023527.16647@alphalpha.com> Date: 5 Apr 91 02:35:27 GMT References: Distribution: comp,world Organization: none Lines: 66 In article mishkin@jrst.apollo.hp.com (Nathaniel Mishkin) writes: >I hate to be cynical, but I just don't know how to react to the >discussion about the DM and about the lack of DOMAIN on the 9000/700. >It's really nice to hear about how people like the DM and DOMAIN but >I'm afraid it's just very late in the game. The world decided that >standard is better than better (and that even better in the form of >superset functionality is suspect). The world also decided that >cheaper (and better yet, free) is better than better. The rest -- you >must be standard and we're not going to let you make enough money (at >least in software) to do "better" as well as "standard" -- pretty much >follows on. I actually agree with this, but with two caveats. First of all, switching to a standard does not mean that you can't improve on it. Apollo's DM has a good 6 to 10 years more history behind it than an X window manager. Improving Mwm with DM ideas would be well worth it, and HP is in an ideal position to influence that standard. Secondly I have to say I could care less about SR11 right now. My 16 meg DN3500 is dying trying to page sendmail, X and a Motif application against each other. I'd much rather run OSF/1, which I assume is no *worse*, and might even be better (lose a good file system, gain some performance). Unfortunately HP has chosen not to support OSF/1 on the DN[34]500 class machines. Instead I'm supposed to upgrade those machines. And of course my DN3000 is hopeless, but I guess I'll live with that. I don't know what that upgrade costs (can someone say? maybe my argument here is all wet), but if it gets anywhere close to $2000 I start thinking about buying something else. We just got a second hand Sun IPC* for $5K and it's a *lot* faster than my 3500 will ever be. Maybe when HP releases a low-end PA I'll look at that, but right now I'm real worried about bottom line, and the cheapest, easiest, and most useful upgrade I could make to a DN3500 is to run OSF/1. Maybe I'm wrong, and OSF/1 will be a dog and I really do need that CPU upgrade, but I have trouble believing that. >the incredibly clunky), I can only hope that after a while, given the >fact that X is so widespread and that the usability of what's out >there on top of it is so bad, someone will build something that has >the "incredibly useful" parts of the DM. The only "someone" that is qualified (discounting Alfalfa, and we don't have the money to finance the time it would take) is Apollo. I should note that Apollo also has the greatest incentive. You've got an awful lot of people in R&D who are refusing to switch to X right now - and that means you're creating yet another situation (Unix being the first) where Apollo isn't using the stuff it ships. -kee Yes I'm ashamed to admit it but it's true - I'm typing this on a Sun. NFS is a crock and slower than mollasses, all the terminal emulators are flakey, the machine hangs about once every two days. The debugger was written in the stone-age, the X server is almost as buggy as Apollo's share-mode X (more so actually, but smaller bugs). The SystemV merge is so screwed up that it's almost impossible to port software to it; but it's fast, it's cheap, and it's JLRU. You too can increase your productivity by setting the clock back 10 years. It's a sad world. -- Alfalfa Software, Inc. | Poste: The EMail for Unix nazgul@alfalfa.com | Send Anything... Anywhere 617/646-7703 (voice/fax) | info@alfalfa.com I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate everyone else's.