Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!pa.dec.com!decuac!hussar.dco.dec.com!mjr
From: mjr@hussar.dco.dec.com (Marcus J. Ranum)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: readline bashing (was POSIX bashing)
Message-ID: <1991Apr08.012359.544@decuac.dec.com>
Date: 8 Apr 91 01:23:59 GMT
References: <1991Apr04.025733.18462@decuac.dec.com> <1991Apr5.072447.4432@mtxinu.COM> <15746@smoke.brl.mil>
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Washington Ultrix Resource Center
Lines: 41

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
>
>[...] having gotten used to spiffy user
>interfaces I'm no longer sure I could be productive if forced to
>revert to old methods.

	The idea is not necessarily to be a counter-revolutionary and
just pitch all windows systems (and GNUEmacs) but to study the
functionality of the windows systems and eliminate redundancy and little
used routines wherever possible. I agree 100% with Doug that part of
Plan-9's slickness is its careful attention to making things conceptually
consistent - a feature of the original UNIX. In fact, the conceptual
elegance of the original UNIX is about the only part that hasn't been
preserved in some grottied-up backwards compatibility hack - it's just
plain gone.

	Picking on windows systems is easy because they're, er, such
large targets. How many different ways can you do the same thing under
MOTIF or Open Look? All that configurability, keyboard-mapping, resizing,
etc. does not come for free. It comes with a cost to the user, too, since
you can easily waste hours frobbing Xdefaults files, startup scripts,
and (possibly) reading the fine manual.

	I agree with the fellow from the Postgres team that spiffy
user interfaces are a Good Thing, in that they make computers accessible
to less technical users - but the less technical users aren't going to
(initially) use all those wonderful slow buggy features that have been
laboriously added into their user interface. Apple (do they still?)
used to do some interesting research about what components of the
window system were used or not, though possibly they exerted some
control because of limitations in ROM-space.

	Being productive with the new methods consists of, what, being
able to have more than one application running, being able to quickly
set your input focus, being able to cover and uncover applications if
there is a size problem, and being able to start and stop them. What
else? I agree, I like my workstation with all these fine windows - it's
like having 8 VT52s with only one keyboard. :) Having my window manager
duplicate functionality of my shell is absurd.

mjr.