Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero-c!nadel From: erich@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Erich Stefan Boleyn) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Chess Message-ID: <2280@pdxgate.UUCP> Date: 8 Apr 91 22:54:08 GMT References: <1991Mar29.020740.2687@world.std.com> <1991Apr1.030506.16835@athena.mit.edu> <1991Apr4.123252.1@dev8.mdcbbs.com> <1991Apr7.031214.3065@bilver.uucp> Sender: uunet!pdxgate!news@ncar.UCAR.EDU Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA Lines: 76 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org bilver!alex@uunet.uu.net (Alex Matulich) writes: >In article <1991Apr4.123252.1@dev8.mdcbbs.com> rivero@dev8.mdcbbs.com writes: >>It's not just chess. Men are socialized to operate in packs ( football, >>basketball, baseball, platoons), while women are basically conditioned >>to operate as a single unit. >Are they? It seems to me that there is a large segment of the male >population who are not socialized in this way. ...[examples deleted]... >If there are a lot of males who aren't socialized to operate in packs, >why can't there be a lot of females who are? I am not sure of the >validity of your argument. Well, there is also the question of what do you mean by "socialized". It is true that male children are generally expected to play "boys games", and amoung each other to participate in certain social roles, but that is not quite the same as packs. It is more like primate social behavior, which is similar, albeit not the same. This is certainly not provalent in all things that men do, but there are shades of it in the competitive nature. Notice that this does not imply that they relate communally on all of the different levels. It is pretty well known that the "traditional" male subculture tends to encourage men to not discuss their emotions much, and to be aggressive and independent in other fields. (I presonally tend to think that the independence and emotional isolation pieces are closely related) As mentioned in another thread, there is also a push for success... which in keeping men interested in "male" things, makes women's things seem less important, or of much lower status. It would be hard to say what women "are conditioned to do", having had no direct experience as a woman, but I would tend to think that women are socialized to act together in a supportive fashion (perhaps the last part are shades of feminism in the culture that I cannot distinguish), and to be more socially conformist and dependent (if not dependent, to rely on others more). For example, I remember many more males in my high school class who were intellectually curious and cared little about grades than females (the ratio was astonishngly high, we had many discussions about this). An interesting experiment (with somewhat related data from parental treatment) that I remember seeing done (on a program like NOVA, but I forget) was where male children and female children at very young ages (about 2 years or so) were given a task to do. They had to get out of an enclosure where it was more-or-less impossible to do so, but looked like it may be possible. The really interesting results were that the girls tended to give up much quicker than the boys, and responded differently (cried for a parent earlier), as compared to fuming around first, then doing so. Related data of parental treatment presented in the program showed a observational study done on several couples (supposedly "liberated" and equal in attitudes of females and males) who gove *very* differential treatment of their children. First, girls were held much more by their mothers than boys were, even in two-children families where age differences were taken into account. Second, boys were expected by fathers to work harder to achieve a solution to some problem, while the girls were supported whether they succeeded or not (sort of a "hey, it only matters that you had fun or tried" type reaction). I don't mean to say that there is some inevitable result like this, or that it is bad to hold a child a lot or even that you shouldn't let them get away with not finding the solution... just that these *very basic* tendencies of aggressive problem solving, independence, dependacy, whatever, are given initial programming (and quite strong, I may add) at a very young age, and as one person in an earlier article pointed out, one of the best places to start is by questioning the institutions that give rise to the behaviors... I say we should also question how we treat children, also at older ages, and very carefully. An interesting side-note is that I remember being told a story of when I was very young and being told to come inside because it was going to rain. I then marched out onto the porch and proceeded to yell at the clouds, shaking my fist, and saying, "You mean clouds, go away, I want to play outside!" or some such. Erich "I haven't lost my mind; I know exactly where it is." / -- Erich Stefan Boleyn -- \ --=> *Mad Genius wanna-be* <=-- { Honorary Grad. Student (Math) }--> Internet E-mail: \ Portland State University / Phone #: (503) 289-4635