Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: RE: Original sin of infants Message-ID: Date: 5 Apr 91 08:46:55 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 84 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu ->The question of "are infants sinners at birth" hinges in its reply ->on what is the definition of sin. There are at least two viable ->definitions of sin: ->1) Sin is a state of separation from God which all humans experience, ->and are born into, as a result of Adam's sin. The so-called "bad acts" ->we commit are a result of this separation from God. ->2) Sin is a knowing, conscious act of disobedience against God. ->Clearly infants fall under case (1) but not case (2). ->Apart from this, even given that infants are original sinners under ->case (1) I have yet to be convinced that baptism is a magic talisman ->against original sin, nor that such a talisman is necessary. An old argument. Baptism is a sign of repentance. How can an infant repent of anything? Infant baptism is just a Gentile form of circumcision. Today, Baptism is an empty tradition practiced by many as a ritual. Real baptism is done by someone who is making a public confession of becoming a Christian. Babies have no choice in the matter. Just as I can't impute righteousness to my children by any act of my own, neither can I save my child by "Baptizing" him or her. I can "dedicate" my children through the act of infant baptism, "Lord, I make a public proclamation to bring this child up in a way that he knows You..." but the act itself has no biblical basis unto salvation. Otherwise, we Christians could just throw water onto everyone in the world, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why mess with evangelism if we have this method available? > QUESTION: -The key question to be answered is the following: Does being born -with a sinful nature necessarily mean that one has committed sin -just by being born? -Steve Timm *********************** >ANSWER: Being born with a sinful nature is not in itself a sinful act. However, since we are born with imputed sin we are all born sinners. The term "Total Depravity" is used to describe our natures. The term doesn't describe the actual *degree* of evil in an individual, but it applies to the FIELD OF OPERATION. We are unable to think pure righteous thoughts or perform pure righteous acts. It is also *Total* in the sense that without divine help the deprivation is irreversible. Theologians give no "age" that this condition begins. We are all born with it. Therefor, we are born sinners, but the act of being born is not a sinful act. I sight (my) children as examples. I can't remember ever having to teach them to be selfish, lie, cheat, steal, act rebelious, or any of the other acts regarded as part of our sinful nature. This is just of the original equipment that comes with the package. Bruce Benning -------------Religion may inform and reform------------- ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform---------- [May I suggest that it is a serious offence against Christian charity to call other people's ways of being Christians "empty rituals". It's absolutely true that infant baptism has the danger of parents doing it as some sort of cultural practice. Our church turns down many requests of this kind. Possibly we accidentally allow some as well: we can't see into people's hearts. But for many parents, and as they grown, children, baptism is an very important thing. One thing that past discussions has made clear is that baptism is a complex symbol, connected with many aspects of the Christian experience. Paul uses it as a symbol of being crucified with Christ. It is a sign of being incorporated into his body. It is a sign of repentance. It is also a sign of God's call to us. My own view of Christianity, which comes from the Reformed approach, emphasizes God's grace rather than our decision. I believe that God calls people from the beginnning of their lives, and that even though their response as children is less explicit than adult response, they are still part of his body. I believe that Christ's death is applicable to children, and that in some manner they are also "buried with him in baptism into death" (Rom 6:4), even though they don't respond as an adult does. I respect the baptist tradition, and appreciate the emphasis it makes on a "decision for Christ". But I would repectfully request not being told that my practices are "empty". --clh]