Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: 1st amendment (was: religious courses in a secular school) Message-ID: Date: 9 Apr 91 07:07:40 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 74 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [This responds to a discussion on prayer at graduation ceremonies. I believe the original question was why the constitution, which seems only to prohibit a federally-established church, is interpreted as preventing religion activities at state-sponsored events. Merlyn LeRoy believes it is a consequence of the 14th amendment, and suggests that the problem is not in allowing individuals to pray at graduation, but in having someone lead a prayer, thus upholding one specific religion over all others. --clh] Well, at my HS graduation, the pastor from the local Presbyterian church got up and gave the invocation. We were not *led* by the pastor. Noone had to sign up to be Presbyterians afterwards. The invocations I have heard over the years have really been quite non-sectarian. But, true, they were addressed to the Judeo-Christian God, and not to Satan. I would say that in an area which was predominantly or significantly Islamic the school board would advise the person delivering the invocation to make sure not to offend these people. In an area that was primarily made up of Satan worshippers, prayers to Satan would be unavoidable. I suspect that if such an area existed, most Christians wouldn't be attending that school. In an area primarily made up of athiests, there would be no need to have people repeat "There is no God..." over and over, (who would be listening to them?) (It wouldn't be a prayer.) Most likely, nothing would be said regarding the existance or non-existance of a diety. Those Christians who found themselves in the gathering would most likely pray silently to their God. But, these are my thoughts, regardless of them, I don't see what an Invocation at a HS graduation has to do with the Constitution of the United States. > 14th Amendment > Sect. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, > and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the > United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State >-> shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges >-> or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any > State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without > due process of law, nor deny any person within its jurisdiction >-> the equal protection of the laws. > Nope, I still don't see it. No *law* has been made by the state *requiring* invocations at HS graduations. If the state were to pass a law banning invocations at graduations, that IMHO would be unconstitutional. Present reasoning seems to be that "the state" and "religion" must be kept separate. And yet, Churches are tax-exempt. Congress starts each session with an Invocation. The Supreme Court itself starts with an Invocation. We have the tradition of witnesses in court, and elected officials taking oaths with one hand raised, and the other hand on the Bible. Our currency claims a trust in God. The pledge of allegiance I learned claimed that we were "One Nation, Under God". All of these seem contrary to the prevalent interpretation of the Constitution. Now, two possibilities: (There may be more). 1. The founders wrote the Constitution. It was almost immediately mis-interpreted. Since that time, we have come closer and closer to the true intent of the founders. 2. The founders wrote the Constiturion. It was correctly interpreted, and we have persistantly and consistantly strayed from the founders original intent. Which one do you think is more likely? Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton