Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Passover for Christians Message-ID: Date: 9 Apr 91 07:09:47 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bank of New York Lines: 85 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes: > >In article >billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) replies: > >> ... Christians do not superceed Jews, we SHARE in the >> promises. The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has >> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000 >> years. > > I'm going to have to disagree strongly with Bill here. Once >Christianity established a distinct identity from Judaism, Jews no >longer cared about the Christian theology, and have had very little >to say on the subject, let alone "animosity." That's why Tom's >attitude is commendable in my view, since I couldn't care less what >you think of my Covenant, as long as you don't bother me. Perhaps you need to read "between the lines" to understand how I meant this. I did not mean that Jews were sitting there watching Christian doctrine saying "Hey, these goyem (gentiles) are trying to steal our promises from God." Rather, Christians have gotten too egotistical saying "Jews are OUT, we Christians are IN". >> The attitude that we have replaced the Jewish people has >> caused unmesurable animosity between Christians and Jews for almost 2000 >> years. It has led to the crusades, pogroms, etc. Perhaps this version would have been more understandable. There are Christians (those I consider true Christians) and "Christians" (those who you would probably consider Christain, a much looser and broader definition). Most of what has been done to the Jews in the name of Christ has been done by "Christians". The attitude of "who is interested in that Jew stuff" as espoused by many is again an attitude of some "Christians". Many(most?) Christians (lack of "") have an interest in Judaism because we recognize it as an integral part of our faith. Jesus quoted/refered to many parts of the Torah and Tenach (sp?). The Christian Testament says it is for the Jew FIRST and the Gentile also. Christian doctrine is that Christ fullfilled Jewish Testament Prophesies, Covenants, Festivals, etc. I do not expect you to necessarily accept these interpretations, nor do I expect you to have them forced down your throat, but in this light I do expect you to understand my interest (even if you do see it as misguided, incorrect, etc.). > The animosity Bill describes stems from 2000 years of (1) blaming >Jews for deicide (2) assuming that Jews are somehow devils {see St. >John Chrysostom's and Martin Luther's writings; references available >on request} and (3) various bizarre blood libels and ritual murder >accusations, such as "Hugh of Lincoln" all of which were used to >justify large-scale murdering of Jews, i.e. the Crusades. Exactly, based upon the attitute that "Jews are OUT, we Christians are IN". Perhaps if I had chosen my words more carefully you would have understood that I was making exactly the same point. > In the past few decades, many positive steps have been taken to >eliminate the deicide and blood libels from mainstream belief, and >that's a Good Thing, and holds the most promise for improving >inter-religious relations to a stage of mutual respect. > > However, the attitude that attempts to redefine Judaism to include >Christianity through "Messianic Jews" produces precisely the opposite ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is what they call themselves. If you have an issue with that label that is best taken up with them. BTW, they have since left our church and have started their own "Messianic" Congregation, Beth Israel with their own "Messianic Rabbi/Pastor". No flames on this please, this is how they refer to these things themselves. >effect, and *does* cause animosity, especially among knowledgeable >Jews, who view it as an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, as >is clear when Bill notes that they hold memberships in a "Church >of the Nazarene." Talk about passing the duck test... > > Pretending or insisting that "Messianic Jews" and "Passover for >Christians" will improve relations does not make it so, despite >your good intentions. > Robert A. Levene Bill Gripp