Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!know!login From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: CDTV and CD-I (last) Message-ID: <23487@know.pws.bull.com> Date: 13 Apr 91 21:47:33 GMT Sender: login@pws.bulL.com Lines: 135 OK, I've watched certain remarks go far enough. Kevin, your neatly leaving out several factors which put the odds in CD-I's favor... Kevin Darling writes: >The base cpu effectively runs 70% faster than a base A500, and video DMA >blocking is minimal, or nil on double-buffering if you it turn off a plane. The Amiga is well known for it's custom chip's DMA support. The blitter in the Amiga can do things that even a 68030 based MAC can't do. Since CD-I doesn't come standard with a blitter, how do you propose very fast and intensive graphic manipulations in things such as games? Saying "I don't think games is an important part of..." has nothing to do with this conversation, because I can just as easily dismiss CD-I features as unneeded in order to tilt the favor towards CDTV. Fact: CD-I doesn't come standard with a blitter. As a matter of fact, CD-I doesn't come standard with a lot of things. Hey, how about that OS? The Amiga has a much more cleanly constructed, faster, and RAM conservative OS than anything IBM or Apple currently makes. There's another few points in CDTV's favor. It can do more with less overhead and it will need less RAM to do so. Thus...CD-I will *probably* require more memory which adds to the price. You mentioned yourself that none of the under-$1000 CD-I players will come with much in the way of expanison ports (I believe). CDTV sports a very impressive list of expansion ports. Any CDTV buyer can hitch his unit up to a printer, or a modem, or add memory, or add a genlock, or use his VCR, or add a board (which makes up for any CD-I video advantages :) ). Mark another one up for CDTV. Take a walk over to the Atari SIG and ask a few people what having a blitter as an option did for Atari compatibility. I don't care how compatible a blitter option is, it still will bring up software misfires (too slow or too fast of graphics, depending on what your using). Can CD-I step over all of these holes? Well, when they finally start building and selling the things we'll find out. :) I think you may be taking what CD-I backers say to far to heart. I don't disagree that some CD-I players will have all of the features you've gone over *down the line*, but I don't see how most of these features (expansion ports, etc.) along with everything else can be sold in machines costing under-$1000. Thus, most of what CD-I may have to offer will be in the higher end market. Just like computers have levels of markets, so will this. Commodore still lives in the same world as the people who make (will make) CD-I. It's not like Commodore is some type of electronic cripple who can't get up and touch the new electronics out there. CDTV will sell, put money in Commodore's pocket, and THEN they can bring out a board for it (and a new player) that will make up for what advantages CD-I may or may not have over CDTV. >Short term wins, at best. CD-I will be at CES (note to CBM employees asking >me questions in email: sorry, I didn't know until today). Just think about >what magazines like Consumer Reports are going to say in comparisons . Try reading some of these "unbiased" magazines from an Amiga user's point of view. According to most, IBM just invented multitasking and multimedia last year. Who knows WHAT they will say? >All our arguments here on the net won't affect the common buyer. As for >price, I really don't know how deep CBM could cut. We'll see. Excuse me? Kevin, have you kept up with Commodore over the past eight years? The very reason why Commodore exists has to do with their ability to outprice anybody in the market when it comes to computer electronics. What makes you think that anybody from Japan can outprice them? Commodore builds their *own* chips over seas too. This brings up another point I'd like to make. You dumped the C64, VHS, and something else into a group of underpowered goods that controlled the market. The Commodore 64 sold because it had better features than anything in the low-end computer market. It was the best in it's market. I don't think CD-I can live in this very same market up against CDTV. The CD-I makers have yet to deliver a unit to compete with CDTV in *this* market. Perhaps Commodore will soon release (in about a year :) ) a high-end CDTV unit with features to compete with CD-I, and perhaps a board will come out for CDTV to upgrade. Think of CDTV as a building block for Commodore's multimedia onslaught. I don't care who builds what for CD-I, it will *not* outprice CDTV in it's own market. A good deal of the word "perhaps" in that sentence, perhaps..but it's all you can say about CD-I too. >I _haven't_ even mentioned the coming ISDN, virtual reality, remote services, >and other star players in the CD-I home interactive arena. Gentlemen, >I fear that CBM hasn't a clue what a swift and wide river they stepped into. The Amiga has played a staring role in some of the more advanced virtual reality projects. CBM does have a clue as to what the public wants in a computer (but they don't know how to market it). IBM doesn't have a clue about how to build a computer. So what? >But anytime someone promotes CDTV solely because it's from Commodore, I'm >gonna jump in. Anytime someone wishes inferior technology on the world >simply because it's happened before, I'm gonna jump in. And anytime someone >thinks CBM is the last word in graphics chips, _everyone_ should jump in ;-). Well welcome to the world of computers! We Amiga users have seen "someone promote MSDOS and Apple computers solely because it's from them." We've seen IBM practicly ram inferior technology down the world's throat. We've seen people pay bloated prices for an Apple simply because people think it's the last word in computers. I'd say it's Commodore's turn to stick their hand in the public's pocket. Maybe CDTV does have *some* less able features than what I'm sure will be a much higher priced CD-I unit, but I hope Commodore sells the socks off it. Why? Because I trust Commodore more with the "future" of multimedia and computer standards than any other (IBM, Apple, Atari). You see, after years of pigs from IBM and Apple (The IIfx is a nice pig, but you have to live high on the hog to own one. :) ), maybe it's time for a company with brains (although they need a marketing transplant) to rule a certain computer market? CDTV is a VERY nice machine. The point is it's HERE and CD-I isn't, no matter how many "production" units you've played with that sell for $1000+. Here's a fact: CDTV exists in a under-$1000 consumer unit. CD-I does exist to a small extent, but in a different level of the market. After years of IBM and Apple TV ads that make it sound like they are God's gift to computers, I *don't care anymore*. If CDTV makes Commodore money, the Amiga line get's an R&D injection, and that makes me happy. For all I care they can use the multimedia market like a cheap hooker for the next two years like Apple has used a computer and it's name to fill the bank with money. In summary: CD-I isn't even here yet, so what you promise as features should be taken with a grain of salt. CD-I, if it does have all those features, will probably not sell for under $1000. CDTV does have it's feature advantages over CD-I. And Commodore can use CDTV profits to boast the Amiga and produce a new CDTV model (if CD-I can deliver on it's features..and that's a BIG if). Or look at it this way...Some CD-I backers use the profits from a poor VHS standard to produce a CD-I player, and Commodore uses profits from a poor (I don't agree with this, but in your words...) CDTV standard to produce Amiga products. Gee, the world isn't so complicated when you look at it through IBM eyes...[Writing that one down...] Tom -- Why purchase a MAC when an Amiga with the same CPU will run 99% of all __ MAC software..and FASTER at that?! The same can be said of the IBM and __/// Atari computers, and I can run those in a window. IBM's greatest sales \XX/ tool is ignorance on the consumer's part. Only the Amiga! DEVO Anyone?