Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!agate!stanford.edu!neon.Stanford.EDU!calvin!zimmer From: zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next Subject: Re: Spreadsheets Message-ID: <1991Apr14.055653.10146@neon.Stanford.EDU> Date: 14 Apr 91 05:56:53 GMT References: <1991Apr13.115926.4528@neon.Stanford.EDU> <8242@idunno.Princeton.EDU> Sender: news@neon.Stanford.EDU (USENET News System) Organization: Stanford University Lines: 155 In article <8242@idunno.Princeton.EDU> sksircar@shade.Princeton.EDU (Subrata Sircar) writes: >zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) writes: >> [...] the big three: >> Spreadsheets >> Wordprocessing/Desktop Publishing >> Databases > >This is an outdated catagorization of software, IMHO. Where do Mathematica, >Matlab, compilers, and graphics programs fit here? Any business that is buying >computers just for these three uses will buy cheap IBM clones, which can do The catagorization is not outdated, it is a fact of life for computers. The prodcuts you mention, Mathematica, Matlab, and compilers while important pieces of software, they do not make or break a machine like the big 3 will. I consider graphics to be part of both spreadsheets (graphing) and Desktop Publishing (Drawing). BTW, before you knock IBM clones, all of the software you mention is available for the IBM clones and the Macs. (In fact, one of the best symbolic math packages is only available for the IBM PC. (Derive) > >> Now, spreadsheets. Right now, there is only one that you can get, Improv. >>(I know about Wingz, but last I talked to Informix, it wasn't shipping for >>the 040). I have a lot of problems with Improv. >> 1. It lacks some graph types that many people want. > >Actually, no spreadsheet will suit everyone's graphing needs. If I want >to graph something on a Mac I'd use Kaleidagraph, which >can do damn near anything you want. If I'm on a Unix box, I use gnuplot. > A number of people have suggested gnuplot. Gnuplot on the NeXT is deficient in two areas. It is not interactive. (Or at least to my knowledge it is not, or you use one of the X servers) and second, it doesn't provide a nice way to manipulate the data you wish to graph. For that, you need a spreadsheet to determine how you want to look at raw data. Gnuplot under X solves the interactive problem. >> 2. I tried to use it just as a spreadsheet. It did not seem obvious to >>me how to use it. Something as simple as swapping two rows took me 20 >>minutes to figure out. And even then, I had to do a copy and then a delete. > >My experience differs from yours. When Improv was demonstrated at Princeton, >I was able to goof around with it for a little while. As someone who had >used a spreadsheet once before (to keep track of rotisserie baseball stats) I >was quite pleased. Being able to flip rows and columns with a keystroke >impressed me a lot, as I always wanted to be able to do that. It seems to me >to be ideal for introducing people to spreadsheets, and hence perfect for an >organization that is starting out. I agree, there are some nice features to Improv. > >>But, the worst thing about Improv is that it is not compatible with other >>spreadsheets. >>(Yes, it can almost import 1-2-3 spreadsheets, but it is not compatible) > >I'd like to respond to this in two ways: first in my normal tone of voice, >then in a nasal whine :<) > >If it can import 1-2-3 spreadsheets, that's all you need. If you're just Wrong! Pages 9-7 through 9-15 of the Improv manual tells how to import a 1-2-3 file. It can be done, but I would not like to have to do it on a regular basis. Not only do things have to be converted, but you lose all of your macros! Later in the chapter, it tells about exporting files. It is not clear how well this might work. Contrast this to my view of the world, a world where you have 1-2-3 on the NeXT. At work, you use the large screen and speed of the NeXT to work on your spreadsheet. When you have to go on a trip, or home, you copy your file to a DOS disk and can look at you file using you IBM portable laptop. When you come back from your trip, or home, you take you IBM Disk and put it in your NeXT. SoftPC will almost allow you to do this, but you lose speed and your nice big screen (which is a god send for spreadsheets). (Actually, my experience with SoftPC was on a DEC 3100. Maybe on the NeXT, it will do a larger then normal PC screen.) >starting a business, you don't have old documents to worry about and you can >certainly get other documents in 1-2-3 format. If you're upgrading, and your >old spreadsheets can't read/write 1-2-3 format, you are a very rare organism >indeed. Improv can also write 1-2-3 format, I believe, so you're covered >there. > >Secondly, compatability between platforms is highly overrated. Name me any >Mac software that was compatible with IBM when they started out. Even now, >with the advent of Windows, only applications released by the same company are >even remotely alike. Microsoft products look the same across different >platforms, and no doubt if they released WordNeXT it would look similar, but it >looks nothing like any Claris product. Why do you expect the NeXT to be any >different? > Compatability between platforms in not rated nearly high enough. NeXT actually realizes this. Why do you think you can write an IBM DOS disk on the NeXT. You are correct that not much of the Mac Software was compatible with IBM when it came out. There are two points to this arguement. First, much of the software was not available for the IBM PC at that time (the desktop publishing aspects of the Mac). The second point is that lack of compatibility hurt the Mac as it did to other machines. All can now read IBM PC formatted disks (after the PC went to the 3.5 in disk) and all either have products to run IBM software, or the company had boards that could be added to get the functionality. I might also point out that Mac's have at best 10% of the market, while PC's have 80+%. (I don't have hard numbers for this, maybe the net can help) >Thirdly, compatibility is on the other end of a balance from innovation. If >everything is backwards compatible, you can't ever make new strides. > >> I feel that lack of a compatible spreadsheet will be the downfall of NeXT. >>It will prevent businesses from moving from IBM/PC's and Mac's to NeXT's. >>Instead, they will go to high end PC's, or high end Macs, or Sun machines. >>All of these run industry standard software. > >Industry standard software? If you mean "each of these runs the standard >software FOR THAT MACHINE" you'd be right but irrelevant. If you're saying >that businesspeople will be scared away because "it's not 1-2-3" ... well, >you may be right, but I'd like to think that people are willing to try new >and possibly better products... Yes, industry standard. Excel runs on three of the major players (IBM, Mac, and Sun (I have seen the first, the third I was told). 1-2-3 runs on IBM, Sparc. WingZ runs on IBM, Mac, Sun, and almost on NeXT. > >Lastly, have you considered the possibility that Improv, and things like >Interface Builder, might become the NEW industry standard? No, because they won't. The industry standard for spreadsheets will probably be the Gnu spreadsheet currently in the works. As for IB, it also will not be the standard. The standard will use Motif and C++. > >I'm not sure if NeXT will succeed. But if they don't, I don't think software >incompatibility with other machines will be the reason. A reasonable >platform will persuade people to port/write software for it. After all, >needs must, when the devil drives. No, a reasonable platform will not persuade people to port/write software, Market share and incentives from the hardware manufacturer will. Dec has a reasonable platform in the Dec 3100 and Dec 5000 platform. Yet for some reason they have to go out to companies and encourage them to port to that platform. An even better argument can be made about the NeXT vs IBM PC's. Which is a more reasonable platform for music? Which one is Coda trying to port it software to run on? > >Subrata Sircar | sksircar@phoenix.princeton.edu |Prophet& SPAMIT Charter Member > I don't speak for Princeton, and they don't speak for me. >"May their souls rot in easy-listening hell!" - Johnny Melnibone, GRIMJACK #76 >"I seem to suffer from irrelevant flashbacks." - Paul, PAUL THE SAMURAI #1 Andrew Zimmerman zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu