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From: anthony@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Lawrence Anthony)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: (long) summary of answers to "some specific questions re: HP 9000 series 700"
Message-ID: <1991Apr17.101957.11017@nntp-server.caltech.edu>
Date: 17 Apr 91 10:19:57 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 189

I wrote:
>I have a few questions regarding the 700 series workstations from HP:

thanks to the several persons who responded by e-mail and through the net.
here is a condensation of the various responses.  [my annotations and
comments are in square brackets.]  these responses were in general
accompanied by the usual disclaimers;  said disclaimers should continue
to apply.

>1. What is the capacity of the 3.5" floppy drive unit (A1984A)?  1.4 MB?
>Does it have the capability to read/write MS-DOS/Macintosh diskettes?
======
It supports all the HP and IBM double-sided and high-density formats,
including 720K and 1.44M.  Sector sizes of 256, 512 and 1024 bytes are
supported.  The IBM capability is essential for SoftPC, which I understand
is very peppy on a 700.  The IBM & HP are all CAV formats.  Apple uses CLV
and I don't believe we can handle that.
======
I have it listed as a 2MB drive.  I do not know if that is formatted or
not.  HP-UX has utilities for reading MS-DOS disks, but I do not know
if it works for this unit.
======
I have it listed as a 1.4 MB floppy.  Traditionally the ability to
read MS-DOS floppies has been provided (doscp, dosls . . .) but I
cannot say they are supportted on this drive.  As we are touting
the fact that SoftPC runs at a 25MHz 386 speed I certainly hope so.
======
I assume that the 700 has the same (full) support for DOS files like
all other HP9000 workstations.
======
[...] The "2MB" floppy capacity [...] is the
*unformatted* capacity --- a pretty futile figure.  I can't say which floppy
access programs are included with "base" HP-UX, I'm afraid; 7.0 included
"dosls", "doscp", and their friends; I'm not sure whether 8.01/8.05 include
these.
======

>2. Doesn't the base HPUX operating system come with a C compiler?  If so,
>how is it different from the C/ANSI C compiler (B2413A) offered as a
>separate layered product?  If not, how does one recompile the kernel?
>What is the motivation behind marketing the C/ANSI C compiler separately
>at list price of $1,500?
======
The base system comes with a minimal compiler used only for reconfiguring
the system.  The C/ANSI C compiler mentioned is needed for user programs.
======
        Yes.
        It's not ANSI C, doesn't generate debug info, other C development
tools are missing (I think this means things like lint, but what I'm reading
doesn't specify), it may not do optimization.
        It is sufficient to build a kernel, and for other routine
(non-programming) tasks.
======
There are two C compilers made available with the Series 700.  A minimal
compiler, used primarily to recompile the kernel is bundled into the HP-UX
system.  This provides the ability to compile C source.  Nothing more.

The separate C/ANSI C compiler (B2413A) provides substantially more than
basic compilation.  Optimization, debug, ANSI conformance, and tools
enhance the capabilities of the C compiler.  The Series 700 back-end has
substantial optimization capability, which contributes to the published
performance number.  Symbolic debug is provided by the debugger in concert
with debug code information emitted by the compiler.  The compiler is able
to accept and/or enforce conformance to the ANSI C standard (X3.159-1989
ANSI C standard) and POSIX (P1003.2 Draft 9).  Tools are provided to aid
in normal development activities (cb, cflow, cxref, lint, and ANSI lint )
as well as in making the transition from Kernighan and Richie C to ANSI C
(protogen and endif).

The separate C/ANSI C product can be obtained at a substantial discount
for eduational users.
======
A base compiler for recompiling the kernel is shipped.  It is not
suited for nonsystem use.  The C/ANSI C compiler was unbundled from
the operating system when it was decided that HP product must be able 
to make a profit on their own.  This lowers the price of the system
for people running applications and allows the compiler folks to set
their own price.  Why that price, you'd have to talk to marketing.  I
do know it is a very good compiler, especially on the S700s.
======
Of course you get a (good) compiler.  It produces better and faster code than
a gcc.  However, as a result of Sun's decision to charge extra for their
better, ANSI compiler HP made the same (and IMHO unfortunate) decision.  I know
that there was a strong opposition against this inside HP but the $ counting
people won.  The good thing is that the money they make on the high-perf
compilers is allocated to a special compiler development group.  The high-perf
compilers have one level higher optimization a ("+O3"; instruction scheduling?)
and a few other extras.  They produce code that is considreably faster
than the standard compilers.
======
As far as the compiler goes: the vanilla compiler is [...] not ANSI C,
little in the way of optimisations, but enough to recompile
the kernel [not *TOO* inefficiently, I devoutly hope; most of the kernel's
objfiles aren't affected by kernel rebuild, they're just sucked in by ld(1)].
It's enough for compiling uudecodes in shar-files, and little bitty C progs;
the seperate full-feature compiler is for Serious Program Development.  I
understand that Sun also charge something like $1.5K for their full-feature C
compiler (but I may be wrong!)
======
I think the official idea was to reduce the price by not selling a C
compiler to people who had no use for one.  There are indeed quite a few
people of this sort (or so our marketing folks tell us, and they seem to be
right - there are any number of such units we hope to sell as dedicated CAD
and number-cruncing(Fortran) units, etc), so we bundle a somewhat crippled
C compiler as the default (just for building the kernel, etc - no
optimizing or debugging support, and no ANSI C).  The intent is not that
people buy just an ANSI C product, but that they buy a Programming
Environment product (HP-UX has always made the distinction between an
"Application Execution Environment" (AXE:  read:  "vanilla") and a
Programming Environment (PE, which comes for a little more).

Personally, I think HP marketing is simply playing "me too", since Sun went
ahead and unbundled their C compiler (which they sell for $2000).  Anything
to shave a few thousand dollars off the price. In any case, as an educational
site, you are probably entitled to a whopping discount.

I've asked the HP marketing folks to post a clarification in this regard,
especially for those people who already have HP-UX 7.0 on some systems and
are planning to upgrade to HP-UX 8.0, which is when this unbundling is
to take place).
======
[according to my hp sales rep, educational discounts for the C/ANSI C
and f77 compilers are a hefty 90%.  this presumably extends to other
language compilers as well, but i cannot be sure.]
======

>3. We have a half-height DDS DAT drive from Wangtek which we hope to use
>with the 700 series workstation.  Should we expect problems reading the
>HP DAT distribution tapes on our third-party DAT drive?  How about booting
>off a bootable DAT tape on our third-party DAT drive?
======
We only support the HP DDS unit for booting/installing.  Lack of support
does not automatically mean that it will not work, it means that we have
not and will not test that the configuration works or commit to any bug
fixes that are caused by that peripheral.  (Note that the SCSI card *is*
a supported HP product.  We will fix problems on our end)
======
It might work, but boot/install devices are usually rather restrictive.
If it works for a while and then stops, you will only get a fix if there
is a problem in the SCSI driver.  I do not know if update queries the
device id, but have had problems with booting off of "unsupported" disks.
======
I don't know.  HP's DAT/DDS is standards conforming.
======
As long as it's an ordinary old SCSI device, you should have no trouble
*reading and writing*, but I can't say about booting (you may be able to do
so, but I can't confirm it).
======
[...] "it may work, it
may not, you're more or less on your own."  If you do run into problems with
the "standard" driver (on a s300/s400 this would be "scsitape", but I've not
done ANY sysadmin on a s700 or s800) try hassling Wangtek about a custom
driver... maybe...  Semi-educated guesswork on my part says you're more likely
to have problems booting off it than doing "normal" user read/writes --- for
booting you need the Bootrom to talk special nonsense to the drive, and I've
absolutely no idea how closely a Wangtek drive emulates the HP DDS drive.
======

>4. What is the format of the documentation on CD-ROM (B2355A #0BC)?  Are
>they in nroff/troff format?  Would it be possible to generate nice-looking
>hardcopies from the CD-ROM documentation on our postscript laser printer.
>Will I still have access to the usual online man pages in /usr/man if I
>choose not to purchase the above option?
======
They are in HP TAG format, a proprietary SGML.
LaserROM provides the capability to dump illustrated and typeset
hardcopy, but only an a PCL printer like a LaserJet+ (or later).  If your Ps
printer is a laserJet with a cartridge, you'll need to put it in PCL mode.
Yes.  [in response to ability to access the usual online man pages]
======
Still don't know.  They may be done in a format called HPTag (or something
very much like it).  The files in /usr/man are on the install media and
should always be available.
======
I don't know the format but you can produce nice looking copies (including
pictures and other graphical illustrations) on a PCL printer (LaserJets,
DeskJets and others) without the need for any PostScript.
======
It's a somewhat proprietary format (produced by running a Tex-like formatter
over an SGML input). There is an option to dump *PCL* (not PostScript) to
an ordinary LaserJet, from inside the LaserROM reading program (called
HP LaserRom/UX !).
======

thanks once again.

Regards,
Lawrence Anthony
lza@ulysses.caltech.edu