Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!apple!keith From: keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: New Apple Self-Help Tools Message-ID: <51699@apple.Apple.COM> Date: 19 Apr 91 07:27:44 GMT References: <1991Apr16.040127.5260@wlbr.imsd.contel.com> <51554@apple.Apple.COM> <23337@unix.SRI.COM> Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA Lines: 121 In article <23337@unix.SRI.COM> mxmora@unix.sri.com (Matt Mora) writes: >In article <51554@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > >>The first consideration is the price of the components of each >>package. For instance, sez here that the Mac C Programming package >>consists of THINK C, Mac Programming Primer, Human Interface >>Guidelines, and Mac Programming Secrets. THINK C runs $200-250, and you >>can figure about $20 for each book. This means that the total price >>should be in the area of $280-$330. The actual price is $250. >> >>Now, this sort of leads to the second consideration, which is the >>discount that Apple gives you. THINK C by itself costs $249 from APDA. >>That means that Apple is throwing in 4 books for $1. > >WOW! I guess APDA is making a pretty penny on THINK C. I bought my >copy from MacConnection and it was around $165.00. Thats $84.00 dollar >difference. Divided by four books equals $21 a book. No bargin there. To be honest, I don't know what kind of deal APDA has with Symantec, and where all the money goes to. I will also be honest and say that I didn't know how far off $249 was from the mail-order price. Does anyone know what the average store price for THINK C is? > >I can't understand why Apple's developing products are SO expensive. >When it is the final product from us, the developers, that helps >them sell computers. I'd like to get some real world input on this one. Let's compare ETO with similar packages in the industry. I'm talking Sun, MicroSoft, NeXT, HP, whatever. On ETO, you get the following items: - Several versions of the complete MPW (which includes Shell, C & Pascal compilers, Assembler, linker, resource editor, and about 100 other tools and scripts). - Macsbug 6.2 (includes sample dcmds) - SourceBug (new direct manipulation source level debugger) - Discipline - ResEdit 2.1 - SADE (not an impulse item, but it's there...) - MacApp (2.0.1 and experimental 3.0 versions) - MacApp documentation (on line) - AppleLink archives of conversations from from MacApp.Tech$ and CPlus$ over the last few years. - Testing tools (like Virtual User) - System 7.0 - 411 (MPW on line help - contains all of Inside Mac, Technotes and MPW documentation). - Developer Essentials (All of the DTS goodies - sample code, technote stacks, FAQ stacks, preliminary and suplementary documentation, electronic versions of "develop", etc.) All this for $995 for 4 quarterly updates. I've talked with other developers with experience on other systems. They say that even a small part of what I've listed above would run $5000-10,000 on other platforms. That doesn't even begin to address the quarterly update issue. I realize that competition may be stiff with the NeXT offering. But I would really like to see an item by item comparison of the above with what other companies have to offer. Seriously. I also realize that putting together the "mondo does everything has everything" package is not what everyone wants. Especially on this net where all most people want to do is compile a simple program. But then, it's not always possible for a single manufacturere to be everything for everybody. For example, Mercedes-Benz doesn't make a small car to my liking. Similarly, my dad would never by a Honda because they don't get shitty enough gas mileage. This is not to say that Apple scorns the small developer. It's just that Symantec and Apple have both carved out their own niches in a marketplace that supports both: Symantec caters to the small (and even not-so-small) developer, and Apple provides the Mercedes of development systems -- simply because that's what a large number of our customers want. > >I just received another ploy from apple. $6000 for phone sex, Oops... >I mean technical support help line. I think the phone number is >1-976-cal-appl. :-) JUST KIDDING. SMILELY SMILELY > >Realy $6000 for phone help. Now where did apple come up with that price? >Why doesn't apple just use a 900 number? They could charge 0.75 a minute. >That woould be like getting a consultant for $45.00 an hour. Thats not >to bad. As Brian Bechtel just noted, this $6000/yr service should not be confused with the support DTS gives. I think that it's for in-house developers at large corporations. These are the types of establishments that a) expect a high-level of support and interaction with Apple, and b) can pay the big bucks for it. Having at one time worked in that part of Apple, I can say with a high level of assurance that the $6000 figure was arrived at after doing a lot of research into the kinds of people who would be using the service and talking with them. I think that it's based on the A/UX phone support that they've had for years, and which charges a comparable price. This is definitely not the support program "for the rest of us", nor is it intended to be. It is the support program for the people who say (and they _have_ said this) "This is what I want from Apple, and I'll pay any amount for it." For the rest of us, there's DTS (which at $600 is a steal -- did you ever price support from MicroSoft?) and this net. >___________________________________________________________ >Matthew Mora | my Mac Matt_Mora@sri.com >SRI International | my unix mxmora@unix.sri.com >___________________________________________________________ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo