Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!rutgers!maverick.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!pequod.cso.uiuc.edu!dorner
From: dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: New Apple Self-Help Tools
Message-ID: <1991Apr23.145006.18133@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 23 Apr 91 14:50:06 GMT
References: <51554@apple.Apple.COM> <23337@unix.SRI.COM> <51699@apple.Apple.COM>
Sender: usenet@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
Organization: University of Illinois at U-C
Lines: 105

In article <51699@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes:
>I'd like to get some real world input on this one. Let's compare
>ETO with similar packages in the industry. I'm talking Sun, MicroSoft,
>NeXT, HP, whatever. 

Ok.  Let's talk about a $7000 (list; ed prices much lower) NeXTStation.
Hardware: 340MB hard drive, 2.88MB floppy, 8M memory, DSP, 17" display,
25MHz 68040, DSP, etc, etc.  You can't get this level of hardware from
Apple, but a loaded IIfx is at least in the bleachers of the ballpark.

You get a license for all the software even on the base model NeXT ($5000
list, $3000 typical higher ed price), though not enough disk space to hold it.

>
>On ETO, you get the following items:
>	- Several versions of the complete MPW (which includes
>	  Shell, C & Pascal compilers, Assembler, linker, resource
>	  editor, and about 100 other tools and scripts).

MPW is a UNIX wanna-be with a few bells and whistles thrown in.  NeXT
has the real thing.  C, Objective C, C++, Assembler.  There are also LOTS
more people writing UNIX tools than MPW ones.  I have perl, for example
on my NeXT.

>	- Macsbug 6.2 (includes sample dcmds)

gdb

>	- SourceBug (new direct manipulation source level debugger)

Only heard a tiny bit about this; doubt NeXT has an equivalent.

>	- Discipline

Nope.

>	- ResEdit 2.1

Interface builder.  Absolutely no comparison; IB is several orders of magnitude
more of a help than ResEdit.  If you haven't seen IB, imagine doing all
your user interface code by means pointing and clicking, and you have
a rough idea.

>	- SADE (not an impulse item, but it's there...)

gdb beats SADE hands down in my book.  There are a few things that are
easier in SADE than gdb; there are a million things gdb does with ease
that SADE does not at all or with great difficulty.

>	- MacApp (2.0.1 and experimental 3.0 versions)

The entire windowing environment is written in an object-oriented manner,
and you have access to just about all the classes used.  And you have
Interface Builder...

>	- MacApp documentation (on line)

Online, in Digital Librarian.

>	- AppleLink archives of conversations from from MacApp.Tech$ 
>  	  and CPlus$ over the last few years.

NeXTAnswers, as well as newsgroup archives, and easy connection to
live newsfeeds.  People like Avie Tevanian (Chief OS Designer) put in
the occasional appearance on comp.sys.next.

>	- Testing tools (like Virtual User)

None that I know of.

>	- System 7.0

UNIX

>	- 411 (MPW on line help - contains all of Inside Mac, Technotes
>	  and MPW documentation).
>	- Developer Essentials (All of the DTS goodies - sample code,
>	  technote stacks, FAQ stacks, preliminary and suplementary
>	  documentation, electronic versions of "develop", etc.)

FTP'able developer's course, NeXTAnswers library, ALL docs online.  The
docs are also not base volumes and ad infinitum diffs, but single documents.

>
>All this for $995 for 4 quarterly updates.

All this included at no charge.

Yes, it looks like there are a few things on ETO that you don't get with
a cube.  The reverse is also true; ResEdit/MacApp can't hold a candle to
Interface Builder, QuickDraw is pretty poor compared to PostScript, and
oh, the joys of a protected, preemptive OS...

>I've talked with other
>developers with experience on other systems. They say that even a small
>part of what I've listed above would run $5000-10,000 on other
>platforms. That doesn't even begin to address the quarterly update
>issue.

I agree with you on the systems I've priced, except NeXT.


--
Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office
Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu  UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner