Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: lindborg@mirror.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Satan savable? Hell temporary? Message-ID: Date: 21 Apr 91 06:01:02 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Washington Computer Science Lines: 59 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Hi folks... I'm currently taking a history of early Christian thought in Rome and Greece and I've been plowing through some of the writings of Origen of Alexandria. Although he had some rather strange ideas (ie reincarnation, different domains of the Logos and Holy Spirit etc...) that got him labeled a heretic later, he presented some interesting ideas. In particular, he states that all rational beings (in which he includes demons and even Satan himself) have the ability to acknowledge truth and, hence, can repent and be saved. He argues that any thinking being that starts from God can always be reunited with their creator. Satan is a thinking being and is even described as being very clever and tricky. Additionally, Satan must have come from God for God is (supposedly) the cause of all in the cosmos. So, in effect, he argues that Satan and all his demons can still be saved and return to heaven. He even goes so far as to criticize Candidus for his 'orthodox' belief that Satan cannot be saved because it ran parallel to the idea of predestination. Indeed, if Satan is a necessary element in the end times (he is, I believe, to be subdued and destroyed at some point) then it would stand to reason that he cannot be saved. This would sound like Satan has no choice in the matter and has no hope of being saved. Origen argued that Revelation was mere imagery and that Satan can, indeed, be saved. Extrapolating then, we can expand that argument somewhat. If Satan can be saved, why not the other souls languishing in hell? In this model, then, hell would not be a permanent state, but a place which you could escape from over the course of time (he did stipulate that in some cases the time required for this transition would be quite a long period... but when were talking eternity any finite time constraint would be an improvement). Not that it really matters to me in the big scheme of things, I just thought it was kind of interesting and wanted to know what you all thought. Jeff Lindborg "Right here, right now... there is not other place I want to be.... it feels good just to be alive!" -Faith no More [I'm not sure I understand the question. It's a standard Christian belief that anyone can be saved if they repent. I don't think most people expect Satan to repent, but I don't think it would be regarded as heretical to say that he could be saved if he did. Is there something to this question that I'm not seeing? The only odd issue I see here is the claim that Rev. somehow prevents Satan from repenting. One of the standard questions is whether the fact that God can predict what you will do makes you unfree. It seems to me that the existence of a prophecy such as Rev. doesn't really make things any worse. The issue of freedom already exists in principle if you believe that God can forsee actions perfectly. Different groups deal with this differently, depending upon their views on predestination. --clh]