Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!solo.csci.unt.edu!vaxb.acs.unt.edu!news From: wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc Subject: Re: AMIGA DEMOS: Europe VS. USA Keywords: demos Message-ID: <1991Apr24.014841.46303@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Date: 24 Apr 91 05:40:01 GMT References: <20691@brahms.udel.edu> <1991Apr23.071311.46295@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Reply-To: wright%etsuv2.etsu.edu@ricevm1.rice.edu Organization: East Texas State University Lines: 139 Nntp-Posting-Host: etsuv2.etsu.edu In article <1991Apr23.164302.6289@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes... >In article <1991Apr23.071311.46295@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu writes: [My stuff deleted] > This is not a flame, but this simply is not the case. The C64 proved this. The C64 isn't the Amiga and the Amiga isn't the C64. My observations are based on the Amiga coders, not C64 coders. As such, your observations may be valid for the C64, but not necessarily for the Amiga. The C64 cannot prove anything for the Amiga market, the markets are not the same. >For instance, a personal friend of mine "Wanderer" has programmed over 100 >demos on the C64, yes 100. He runs a bbs now with a 80 meg harddrive full of >his demos from 1985-1990. On the C64, there were many American teen >coders (in the hundreds). For instance the group I was in had 4 programmers, >all age 15-18. Personally, I have about 50 disks full of American >C64 demos. Yes, in the US you are branded a "nerd" for being smart, but >most of us didn't care, it was the competition and "fame" of writing >demos/intros that fueled our desire. The computer was a seperate world. >In fact, the Computer Underground is very much a totally different >world with different moral and social values. What stopped my coding, >was flunking the 12th grade and having to make classes up. I was >more enthusiastic about finishing a demo/intro than doing my term paper. >The Amiga is not as popular in the US as it is in Europe, but try looking >at the number of software done on the C64 and IBM by teens. The number of software produced by teens on the C64 hardly justifies what motivates the Amiga coders. >>cash. To get cash they have to get a job. Hence, less time for coding. This >>isn't to say the European teens don't want this too, but more European teens >>choose to do computer coding than do American teens. I think it partly because >>of the peer and parent pressures here and probably several other factors as >>well that keep teens from learning to code. > > No, more European teens don't choose to code compared to Americans. Perhaps >on the Amiga they do, but not on the C64/IBM. For instance, the sheer Well, since I know absolutely nothing of the IBM coders, I can't make ANY observations there. As I stated at the top, however, my observations are meant for the Amiga (since this *IS* an Amiga group--Read the subject). >number of cracking groups in Europe outnumber the US not because of >the # of programmers, but because the US crackers had better distribution How does US distribution affect the number of USCoders to EuroCoders? Not sure what you are trying to say. Is it that because modems aren't readily available in Europe that more people were having to code their own stuff where almost everyone in the US had a modem, they just spread what was already coded so that US coders had no need to code? That's how I interpreted this. >In Europe (on the C64) most crack groups duplicated each others releases >because cracks were sent by mail(usually only one member of the group had >a modem, 300 baud usually, and the cracks had to be mailed to him for >uploading to the US). In America, mostly every member of the group had >a 1200/2400 baud modem, and every group had about 2-3 bbses where their >cracks could be downloaded from. Any duplicate releases were frowned >upon. New US crack groups would pop up every month but they could never >compete with the "big three" since the big groups had better connections and >usually got new software the very day it hit the shelves. Dispite this, >there were still hundreds of US coders (probably an underestimate) dating >all the way back to the C64's release. Also, DEMOS aren't the only >kind of coding you can do, there were literally tens of thousands of >other kinds of programs done, just check out QuantumLink. Yes, I realize that demos aren't the only type of coding. But since, my observations are limited to only the Amiga coders and not necessarily C64 or IBM coders, DEMOS are a *BIG* part of the coding that is being done on Amiga. Isn't QuantumLink for C64 users only? If so, how do you expect me to check it out with my Amiga. > And concerning demos, they are not the most difficult kind of programming >on the Amiga, they are the easiest. Spend about an hour in the hardware >manual once and if your good at algorithms, in a few days you'll have >yourself a library of routines for drawinbg lines and moving bobs. Easy to someone who may already know 68000 assembly backwards and forwards. For someone who doesn't know assembly at all, it *IS* a bit harder than that. Yes, you don't have OS overhead and OS structures to contend with, but the fact is that you STILL must know assembly to code a demo. > There is nothing "awesome" about copper tricks and vectorballs. They are >easy once you shut the OS down. Multitasking on the Amiga is not slow, Again, easy to someone who knows 68000 assembly. >graphics.library has just too much overhead. Eurocoders don't hit the >hardware because its faster, they do it because it's easier. How many >teens can afford to become a developer, purchase the autodocs, rkms, devcon >notes, and the AmigaDOS manual? Do you think those teens purchase >Devpac or Seka? I doubt most European or American teens could write >a program like AmigaVision, it's too much work. Most demo coding is done is >a week, usually less, with the majority of time taken up programming >tools you need and waiting for the graphics/music to get done. Very few teens can become developers, but that doesn't mean that they can't use their coding ability to produce useable software beyond just a demo or a command line utility. In the PD area there are lots of really good software packages, but if you notice (on the Amiga anyway) most are written in 'C', not assembly (probably not coder written). There are some that written in assembly, but very few. Some coders have gone onto produce games. Games are fine, but what about productivity software. Yes, AmigaVision would take a lot of work, but it is possible. And probably a lot faster in assembly. AmigaVision was probably written in C. > One thing I am sick of in the US is the way intelligence and creativity >are put down. Why does being a "nerd" have bad connotations? If anything, >it should be encouraged. I wonder how it is in Europe and Japan? A 'nerd' is just something that you don't want to be. Not to your friends. It isn't cool, hip, happening or anything else. Like I said before, teens do not like to be branded anything, but cool. Being a 'nerd' isn't. As for creativity, I'd say it is equal across the fence. US and Europe are equally creative, but in different ways. Here the demos tend to be short movies and anims which are as equally creative as the Eurodemos. Anti-Lemmings anim, Walker anim and all of those are very creative, but then so are the Eurodemos. It's the difference between having 512k and 6 megs. Once enough Eurocoders have 500/2000/3000's with 1 or 2 megs chipram, some even more incredible demos will come out. To you the coding may be easy, but for those of use who don't know assembly, it's going to be HARD. One thing I must state, MOST, if not 98%, of your argument was with C64 coders. Please make note that *MY* observations are for the Amiga community as this (I thought) was obvious, since we are in an Amiga group and the subject is AMIGA DEMOS: Europe VS. USA. >-- >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet -------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Disclaimer.... not my words and all that jazz.