Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu!meekins
From: meekins@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu (Tim Meekins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: Choosing a language (ML vs HLL)
Message-ID: <113362@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 27 Apr 91 20:47:30 GMT
References: <8867@crash.cts.com>
Sender: news@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Lines: 79

In article <8867@crash.cts.com> psonnek@pro-mansion.cts.com (Patrick Sonnek) writes:
>In-Reply-To: message from stadler@Apple.COM
>
>Anyways, to paraphrase.  You claim that A good assembler programmer could
>not prototype in assembly because it's just to difficult.   That sounds like
>the same noise I hear from all the coders and consultants around here every
>day.  A good Assembler programmer will, for complex, and complete
>applications, (As opposed to a stand alone program) make HLL programmers
>look silly.  I for one can write, and completely rewrite assembler code
>faster than I can HLL.  I might add, our HLL guru's can't write/rewrite HLL
>as fast, and as bug free, as I do assembler.


Hey, I kinda like this guy :)

I also write 100% in assembly on the GS (100% C on Unix).

A good story, for those of you in the business world, you probably realize that
lastr year the format of the W-2 form changed, thusly voiding about every
payroll system ever written, including the one used here. Anyways, all I needed
was a quick program to print W-2's to the imagewriter. Since the data from
the payroll system couldn't be accessed, I just printed out the *old* W2s on
blank paper. So I wrote in about 3 hours an interactive prorgram which would 
allow me to enter the entire information for an employee then format it and
print it on the W2. The ENTIRE program was written in assembly. It would
have taken me twice as long if I had tried to write it in C and Pascal. What's
so funny about this, is that this is one of those quick and dirty applications
most of you would have said that HLL's were so well suited for. Oh, well...

>
>It's easy to pick one specific routine and compare HLL's to Assemblers.  But
>for a complete system/application, Assembler, in the hands of an assembler
>programmer, will make the HLL look silly, both in coding time, and in
>execution time.

!!!!

But, what you all tend to ignore is file size. I hear arguments that asm
is only 10% faster and I don't need that extra speed, but every consider
that the asm version is 2 to 10 times smaller?


>
>I'm going to say something that is going to make a lot of people mad, but
>every assembler programmer I've talked to agrees with me.  
>
>A lot of HLL programmers are poorer programmers than Assembler programers,
>they lack the sophistication to program in assembler, they don't comprehend the 
>internals of the computer so anyAssembler code that they would write is full
>of bugs, and does take a long time to debug.  And because they insist that the
>Assembler has to fit into thier HLL world, it dosn't even run all that fast.
>
>And those HLL programmers who do understand all the internals, are for the
>most part to lazy to program good assembler.
>

I'm not mad :)

But I do know some great asm programmers that also enjoy/prefer using HLLs
for large projects and I have nothing against that (because I know I can
write a competing system in asm and beat 'em w/ speed and space :) )

Another comment about prototyping. I think I came out as agreeing with
you that protyping can be done very well in assembly. I don't mean to
sound like that. I actually do prototype in other languages when testing
algorithms. But, to keep things simple, a lot of times I just use good
old Applesoft, but for the more complex prototyping I'll use C or Pascal.
HLL's are great for prototyping and experimenting with algorithms, but
the only problem is that usually an entirely different approach should
be used when implementing in asm. Different methodolgies are employed in
different languages to make things work the best, so sometimes protyping
in one language what is to be implemented in another is not always a good
idea. Anyways, enough rambling...

--
+---------------------------S-U-P-P-O-R-T-----------------------------------+
|/ Tim Meekins                  <<>> Snail Mail:           <<>>  Apple II  \|
|>   meekins@cis.ohio-state.edu <<>>   8372 Morris Rd.     <<>>  Forever!  <|
|\   timm@pro-tcc.cts.com       <<>>   Hilliard, OH 43026  <<>>            /|