Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!toddpw
From: toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: Apple II hard drives stuff...
Message-ID: <1991Apr29.005248.16713@nntp-server.caltech.edu>
Date: 29 Apr 91 00:52:48 GMT
References: <415@alchemy.UUCP>
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 77

hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes:

>I'm sorry, Todd, but even if we had 'real utilities' in ROM (whatever those 
>might be), they still won't help me from retrieving my precious data from the 
>hard drive (or floppy drive for that matter), if those functions fail.

Well, a simple disk recoverer would be a good one to slap in ROM. I am not
claiming that you would be able to continue ALL of your work (come on!), but
it is better to be able to continue SOME of it with the aid of the computer
than NONE of it.

> It has nothing to do with people getting 'smart' and such, but rather with
>looking at the computer as a tool in a *realistic* fashion.

Looking at the computer as a realistic tool IS the 'getting smart' I am talking
about. The idea is to reduce dependency on disk drives, so the machine boots
right away and installs updates and extensions as the drives spin up (if they
are even there).

If you are using a laptop exclusively as a terminal, with no charging power
available, there is no point having the hard drive spinning.  They do have
low power modes, but you still have the current surge as the drive starts up,
and spins up when it is woken.

I admit this is a pretty rare example, so here's a better one:
if your HD system software is corrupted, and you have no fresh copies or other
bootables, you're just as screwed -- unless you have a functional version of
the O/S available from somewhere else (like ROM) and can hold down option or
something to prevent it from mounting volumes so you can selectively install
things until you find the culprit. Try to do this on today's boot-only
machines without a working system disk and you are in deep trouble. I
configure my HD to boot ProDOS 8 first, with a single return booting GS/OS,
for exactly this reason -- when testing things like INITs and drivers it has
proven to be invaluable.

>Any *useable* (#) computer is a symbiosis of storage and processing.  When 
>either fails, the computer ceises to be a functioning tool and becomes, for all
>practical purposes, useless.  
>(#) useable refers to a device that permits the processing of a specific task 
>in a productive manner.  Having to kludge around to get it to work is NOT 
>productive in any way!
[ examples of AppleSoft as inadequate for many useful diskless tasks deleted]

I agree with your definition of usable, however I disagree that permanent
(e.g. disk) storage is a requirement given that definition. RAM and ROM are
both storage mechanisms, they just aren't both nonvolatile and writable --
your examples all assume the use of AppleSoft, which is never what I suggested.
What I was getting at was the idea of putting small useful stuff in ROM,
like vt100 emulators, usable text editors, decent calculator and graphing
functions, like notepads, alarm clocks, printing capability, and so on.

>Remember, computers are not designed for hackers (as you probably are) who can 
>make dow ith minimum equipment.  98% of the people out there are computer 
>morons, and/or they use the machine as a tool, not as a passion.  When parts 
>break that are essential, the tool stops being useful and becomes wasteful.

Dammit, my whole point is that computers should be designed so normal people
can also make due with minimal equipment!! The whole system (not just the
hardware and software, but the way they affect how people use computers)
would have to be a lot more robust than it is now, and I don't think the
industry has addressed this adequately yet.

>So, do me a favor, and don't try to create arguments for the sake of arguing, 
>but give reality some leeway in this as well.

I am!! You're just assuming I mean AppleSoft, which I am most certainly NOT
although a beginners' language system (hypertalk has been suggested) would be
another good thing to ROMify. What I want in ROM is a stable version of the
O/S kernel, drivers for the built in hardware including RAMdisk, plenty of
useful programs in a ROMdisk, and so on. The GS is halfway there, and could
easily move to this type of scheme although it would be simpler if GS/OS
(and operating systems in general) were as easily patchable as the toolbox.
(Yes, I know that's a radical suggestion for today's O/S's. It isn't necessary
for this to work, but it would be aesthetically nice.)

Todd Whitesel
toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu