Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Shroud of Turin Message-ID: Date: 28 Apr 91 23:30:29 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA Lines: 37 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: For instance, in theory, we don't believe in trans-substantiation, and yet the elements are treated with a great deal of reverance. Noone would dream of throwing out the leftover bread or grape juice. The elements are sanctified. That's interesting. In the churches I've been involved in (all Presbyterian), the elements are not treated with any particular reverence outside the service. In theory, we don't believe in "Holy Water". (One of my pastors as part of the ritual used to pour water into the baptismal font from a pitcher, as if to emphasize that the water didn't mysteriously appear in the font.) And yet, the water in the font isn't poured down the drain. I picked up the habit of taking it outside and pouring it on the lawn from one of our oldest members. Hmmm....Our water usually came from the water fountain downstairs. I don't know what the usual disposal method was, but I suspect a drain as most likely. The Reformed understanding is that the elements are nothing more than themselves, but in the act of the sacrament, they take on a spiritual meaning. But, since the elements remain simply bread, water, and the fruit of the vine, they have no special meaning apart from the sacramental action. The PCUSA Book of Order says that the elements of the Lord's Supper who be "removed from the Table and used or disposed of in a manner which is approved by the session, and which is consistent with the Reformed understanding of the Sacrament and the principles of good stewardship." There isn't any such statement referring to the water of baptism. This sentence means, basically, that they excess shouldn't be automatically tossed out, nor kept as a special matter deserving of reverence, but simply that excess material should be dealt with as if it were food in some other context. -mib