Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!uwm.edu!ogicse!uidaho!groucho.mrc.uidaho.edu!windley From: windley@ted.cs.uidaho.edu (Phillip J. Windley) Newsgroups: comp.software-eng Subject: Re: Provocative statement Message-ID: Date: 3 May 91 18:20:24 GMT References: <9776@castle.ed.ac.uk> <36650007@hpopd.pwd.hp.com> <1991May2.074129.22155@serval.net.wsu.edu> Sender: @groucho Organization: University of Idaho CS Dept. Lines: 55 In-Reply-To: pcooper@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu's message of 2 May 91 07:41:29 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: panther.cs.uidaho.edu In article <1991May2.074129.22155@serval.net.wsu.edu> pcooper@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu (Phil Cooper - CS495) writes: In article windley@ted.cs.uidaho.edu (Phillip J. Windley) writes: > >Most graduating CS majors wouldn't even be able to analyze a sort routine >and give a cogent argument that it works (note that I didn't say formal >proof). I can certainly recognize a functional sort routine when I see one, and I expect most of my fellow graduating CS majors could as well. If your students can't, then you should take a long look at your curriculum and (more importantly IMO) faculty. I hope you don't go around dropping these little snide remarks around your own students as casually as you do in this group. Instilling confidence in your students is very important. Comments like the one quoted above do nothing positive. Besides, Even if what you say is true (and I don't beleive it is), whose fault is it? it is YOUR job to TEACH students how to do this type of analysis. If they can't, then it is a failing of the University of Idaho's Computer Science dept., rather than of the students. First, I apologize if you took this as a disparaging comment on students because it wasn't. It was a disparaging comment on curriculum and our understanding of how to analyze software. If you think, however, that this is a problem limited to Idaho, you are sadly mistaken. You missed my point. I didn't say that most CS majors couldn't *recognize* a functional sort routine. Indeed, I'm sure that most of our students (and even some of yours ;-) could recognize one and write one. I said that they couldn't give a cogent argument (i.e. an informal proof) as to WHY it was correct. Further, most couldn't even define what corectness means for a sort routine in anything but English. This is, of course, a problem that goes beyond correctness. It extends to performance, function, and most other things that people would like to understand about software. You are right that something needs to change. Not just with Idaho's curriculum, but with WSU's and most other places. It's more pervasive, however, than just adding a course or two; much of what's needs to be taught is still inadequately understood and is the topic of research efforts here and elsewhere. Cheers, --phil-- -- Phil Windley | windley@cs.uidaho.edu Assistant Professor | windley@cheetah.cs.uidaho.edu Department of Computer Science | University of Idaho | Phone: 208.885.6501 Moscow, ID 83843 | Fax: 208.885.6645