Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Shroud of Turin Message-ID: Date: 2 May 91 08:59:10 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 70 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes: >In article tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: (Well, actually I gave examples of practice of treating communion elements with reverence, and baptismal water as well... Michael said that he encountered different practices.) >The Reformed understanding is that the elements are nothing more than >themselves, but in the act of the sacrament, they take on a spiritual >meaning. But, since the elements remain simply bread, water, and the >fruit of the vine, they have no special meaning apart from the >sacramental action. The PCUSA Book of Order says that the elements of >the Lord's Supper who be "removed from the Table and used or disposed >of in a manner which is approved by the session, and which is >consistent with the Reformed understanding of the Sacrament and the >principles of good stewardship." There isn't any such statement >referring to the water of baptism. This sentence means, basically, >that they excess shouldn't be automatically tossed out, nor kept as a >special matter deserving of reverence, but simply that excess material >should be dealt with as if it were food in some other context. What I was describing was not the official church doctrine, but rather the belief of the people in the pews. Perhaps you have encountered different practices. One of my friends while attending seminary was chapel steward. The man in charge of the chapel believed in serving wine for communion, my friend (raised a good Methodist) does not drink alcoholic beverages. Following communion, she was disposing of the wine by pouring it down the drain, at which point she was confronted by the man in charge. "It is to be *consumed*!" he said. This left her with quite a quandry, what resulted was that a number of her friends (not so incumbered with beliefs against alcohol) would help her dispose of the elements on these occasions. Once at annual conference we were addressed by a Roman Catholic bishop (of an overlapping diocese), he spoke of the misunderstandings between Roman Catholics and Protestants. (He believed that much of the difficulty was caused by a class struggle, I.E. the poor Irish and Italian immigrants were Roman Catholic, the rich English shopkeepers were Protestant.) In any case, one of his statements has stuck with me. "It pretty much takes a theologian to be a heretic." His point was that the beliefs of the people in the pews really aren't all that different on the essential matters. And it was only when you got onto side issues that the differences begin to spring up. Much of our strife is based upon simple ignorance and bigotry. Many Roman Catholics are quite surprised to find that we repeat the Apostles' Creed. (And we even say we believe in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.) (I've heard some of the most amazing things.) From protestants I've heard all sorts of things. Catholics don't have Bible Studies. Catholics don't have prayer meetings. Catholics don't sing. (You've heard all of them and more I'm sure.) Both groups seem quite surprised at how similar the Protestant rituals for Holy Communion and the Roman Catholic "Mass" are. I've run into a lot of misunderstandings on both sides of the fence, and the people I know are more alike than different. Many Protestants don't agree with the Pope, most of the Roman Catholics I know don't agree with the Pope on a number of points either. (Indeed I have more respect for the Pope than a number of my Roman Catholic friends.) There's so much that we share, That it's time we're aware, It's a small small world. ;-) Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton