Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!quest!orbit!pnet51!havir From: havir@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Eric Havir) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games Subject: Re: Chessamster 2100 patch Message-ID: <4853@orbit.cts.com> Date: 8 May 91 07:25:01 GMT Article-I.D.: orbit.4853 Sender: news@orbit.cts.com Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN. Lines: 147 ptavoly@cs.ruu.nl (Peter Tavoly) writes: >In <1991May7.002909.17186@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> gfm@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu (George) writes: > >>In article <1991May06.155345.17107@cs.ruu.nl> ptavoly@cs.ruu.nl (Peter Tavoly) writes: >>>In <3850@ux.acs.umn.edu> mndaily@ux.acs.umn.edu (Linda Seebach) writes: >>> >>>>In article <1991Apr26.162946.25169@cs.ruu.nl> ptavoly@cs.ruu.nl (Peter Tavoly) writes: >>>>>Did you ever think that this might render damages to the software house >>>>>producing ChessMaster 2100? By giving a means to everyone to avoid their >>>>>protection scheme, you are actually causing a potential loss in sales, >>>>>since nobody has to have the manual to be able to play the game. >>>> >>>>>Golden raspberry award for you, for that idea. >>>> >>>>I think it's a damn good idea. While I certainly appreciate the alleged >>>>necessity of copy protection, I really hate having to keep a pile of books >>>>next to my computer to use any of my programs. I'm all for patches that >>>>remove copy protection. I just wish more things ran on my computer anyway... >>>> >>>>> -TT. >>>> >>>>--SeebS-- >>>>NOT Linda Seebach >>> >>>In case you did not get the point, this comes damn close to piracy. Unless >>>you can actually prove that you purchased the game, the patch is illegal. >>>(Even then!) >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>Utter bullsh*t, the patch itself is in no way illegal, and the author (I'd assume) is only making it available so that it might help people who are fed up >>with entering words from a manual...it does get tedious...If the patch is used >>for illegal purposes, it is not the fault of the author....Although the >>'morality' of releasing such a patch is debtable, there is no way that the >>patch itself is illegal, For example: There are MANY commercial programs that >>strip both Disk Based Protection AND Manual based protection (For 'Archival >>Purposes' only, of course) these include: Maverick, Nib, Project D, RawCopy and others, and these have exsisted for many years, and are not illegal at all. >> > >Sigh.. Utter Spectum Tauri (tm)! You still don't get the point do you? Who >do you think those 'people fed up with entering words' are? They don't have >the manual, that is why they are 'fed up'! Those who actually bought the >game did so because they valued it worthwhile, in contrast to those, who >just copied it because they could get it for free. If you play it, buy it! > >Such a patch is simply not a good idea, because you never know whether the >next guy who gets it has or has not purchased the game. Even if some do, >you can bet your life on it that 80% or more of the recipients are using >pirated copies (disclaimer: 96.7% of statistics are made up :^), because >they CAN'T play it WITHOUT. Sure I am annoyed by such a protection scheme, >but unfortunately it is necessary in the case of games. (Of course, larger >applications should definitely not have it, since they are already protected >by their sheer complexity.) > >On those 'protection removal packages': Do you think the software houses are >happy with them? Sure they are not illegal, but you could say that of machine >guns used in armed robberies too. POINT: The tool is not the issue, but the >purpose, and such a tool only encourages the *wrong* purpose. (Why do you >think Adam and Eve were cast out of paradise? They had the *opportunity* ;^) > >Just my 2 Forints worth.. > >PS.: Manual protection schemes *cannot* be removed by commercial programs > like Project D etc. since they are embedded in the program code itself, > sometimes they are encoded as well (uhh.. from my 64 days :). > To put my 29 cent stamp into the discussion... I have this stack of software boxes on one of my cupboards, and everytime someone gets 'roudy' around it, they come tumbling down. I thought about buying a big 3 ring folder, and taking the manuals out of all the boxes, and filing em in one nice neat place. Maybe someday. As Per Peter's statement: "They don't have the manual, that is why they are 'fed up'!" I wouldn't agree 100%. I get fed up, although not to the point of writing letters to the companies...but I do. I have disorganized piles of manuals spread upon my desk, and it does get annoying. IF I organize 'em into a notebook, I'm sure I would be happier. But I would fall into the category of being 'fed up', and I am definately not a hacker. Also Per Peter's statement: "Sure they are not illegal, but you could say that of machine guns used in armed robberies too." Actually, last time I checked, machine guns and all other automatic weapons are illegal. *= ) Just kidding... I do get your point. But you'll never supress the hackers need to copy, and although the legit 'backup software' does help the hacker...if it wasn't legit, the hackers would make the illegit ones anyway. After years of study, I have come up with the solution (and the secret to life, women, and marriage!). What needs to happen isn't a 'police solution'. It's more of an education solution. If ever there is a fence put up, someone will try knock it down. I've changed attitudes of friends who were pirates, with a bit of example..and patience. They aren't 100% clean now, but they switched from 5% to 75%, which is pretty good if you study statistics. This whole discussion stemmed off the Chessmaster 2100 patch though. As I understand it (I don't have CM2100 or the patch), the patch is actually the main program file, not a 'patch' for it. This isn't legal to spread around, and I would have to disagree with it's use. If it were a legit 'patch' issued by the author, then I would have to question the sanity of the author to put the actual program file out for grabs. I don't like games that require me to SEARCH through the manual for vague pictures, or text references. Especially ones like "Jack Nickalaus" in the older versions which had that damn brown paper with black ink...that I'd have to run into the bathroom just to get a good idea which course I was looking at (nod if you have seen it!). I don't mind code wheels...although they aren't in the 'fun' category, they are bearable, and readable. They can't be 3 hole punched, but that's fine with me. I prefer manual/code protection to on disk protection. I can back up my manual protected games, and not have to worry about disk drive 'gronking'. The data is usually more compact (no half disk taken with protection), and I can sometimes even edit my character stats (grin!). I'd like to be nieve enough to (spell nieve) believe that copy protection is 'necessary', and on the flip side that it isn't. I have a friend, that is very active in the hacker community. He continually calls me up and tells me what he can get on his 'boards' before I can in the store. I always nod and say 'that's nice'. He finally (after six months) stopped telling me. The idea behind this is, that his sole reason behind hacking is to compare 'warez'. He likes others to know what he has. He says he plays .05% of what he gets. Guys like that, you won't stop with on disk or manual protection...or even if you don't protect it. They don't care...they just want it...and will get it one way or another. The other kind of hacker is Mr. Joe Office worker who gets stuff from his buddies at work, etc. This kind will be somewhat intimidated by on-disk protection and some code wheel protection. Manuals are no bother, there are copiers at work/college/etc. They are pretty easy until they meet Mr. Type A (the hacker) who shows great pride in his warez, and the ability to spread them. The third type is intimidated by any form of protection, and most household insects. I wish we could get Nancy Reagan to run a 'Just Say No' piracy campaign. *= ) (anti-piracy...oops). The actual solution might not be far from it. Although 'Just Say No" has been made fun of by every comedian from coast to coast...it did bring about a change in attitude toward drugs somewhat across the U.S. Maybe that's what software needs?? Who knows. I've bought enough software to equal the national debt in $$$ spent. I've sold quite a bit, too (ex-software salesman). I've written my own. And I did 'hack' back in Jr. High school in the 70's (ok, it was on Apples). I've run a computer software 'Fest' to promote software for no apparent reason. I just have a damn good time playing games!! (Sorry for the length, but it would have all come out in bits eventually.) -- Eric "Rangorin" Havir UUCP: {crash tcnet}!orbit!pnet51!havir ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!havir@nosc.mil INET: havir@pnet51.orb.mn.org