Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The missing body/Empty tomb Message-ID: Date: 5 May 91 04:38:59 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 160 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes: >tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: > >>Why? Why does a change mean that something perfect either is closer to >>perfection or farther from it? It is now something different, and it can >>be perfect both as what it was, and as what it is now. If I took a >>perfect stool, and added a back to it to make it a perfect chair, does >>that deny that it was a perfect stool to begin with? > >This does not seem at all logically equivalent to the statements I am making. >The fact remains that a *perfect* GOD could never change. This has nothing >at all to do with stools or chairs. And neither could His perfect laws >be changed or interrupted. What statement would this being making about the >perfection of said laws? We don't understand perfection, but we need to learn >to understand it, in order to understand our God. And it IS possible to do so. I believe your original statement followed this reasoning. God is perfect. God created the natural laws. For Jesus *body* to rise from the dead, and walk through walls would require changing the natural laws. Therefore this would require that the natural laws were not perfect to begin with. If this were true than it must also follow that God must not be perfect. Since we know that God is perfect, then this requires that Jesus did not rise bodily from the grave, nor did his body walk through walls. My arguement is that: 1. Jesus bodily resurrection (and walking through walls) need not break natural laws. 2. For God to change his laws does not require that the original laws were imperfect. 3. Imperfect natural laws do not refute the perfection of God. A number of the acts of Jesus recorded in the Bible represent violations of the natural laws as we understand them. So, either Jesus was able to violate natural laws, or we do not have an adequate understanding of what the natural laws are, or God overruled the laws of nature for the sake of Jesus. Even if it were necessary for God to expand the natural laws in order for Jesus to rise from the dead, this does not require that the natural laws originally created were imperfect. The laws are only different. The set of laws before Jesus can be perfect, and the set of laws after Jesus can also be perfect. For instance, early mathematics only required addition and subtraction. Later, multiplication and division were added. Mathematics now had new capabilities. This does not imply that Mathematics was imperfect before, nor imperfect after. The systems are different systems. There had been no need for multiplication and division before, later there was. 2 dimensional geometry can be logically derived from a series of laws or postulates. Change a postulate, you get a different geometry, both geometries are perfect. 2 dimensional geometry can be extended to cover 3 dimensions. The 2 dimensional geometry remains perfect, and the new 3 dimensional geometry which was derived from it can also be perfect. Even if it *did* imply that the laws created by God were originally imperfect, and then perfected at the time of Jesus, this does not require that God be imperfect, since God also created imperfect human beings. You reply that human beings are capable of "developing ourselves to perfection, as is willed by God". (Therefore God did not create imperfect beings.) This seems in conflict with your protestation about imperfect laws of nature. If a creation of God (humanity) that is capable of developing itself into perfection does not refute the perfection of God, then why does a set of natural laws that can be developed into perfection refute the perfection of God? >The same natural laws which sufficed to bring Creation into existence >naturally also suffice to maintain it. I would say that any "miracle" >that would require violating the natural laws is impossible and never >really took place. On the other hand, many more things are possible >according to the natural laws than what we have been hitherto aware of. You agree that many things are possible which appear to break natural laws, because we are not aware of all the things which the natural laws allow. (Why then not the passing of Jesus' body through a wall?) >The raising of Lazarus "from the dead" for instance, was possible as >the soul of Lazarus had not yet severed its connection with the physical >body, i.e., the so-called silver cord often spoken of in this regard. >The Divine power available to Jesus was required in the case of Lazarus, >but this happening was in accordance with the natural laws of Creation. >As far as "walking on water", I have to say that I do not know the answer >at this time as to whether or not it happened, but I do know that if it did >take place that there must be an explanation which accords with the natural >laws -- as in every happening! Your "silver cord" does not fall into the body of "natural laws" that we have so far divined. To explain "walking on water" you assume that if it was possible it must be due to natural laws. Why are you willing to accept "natural laws" that allow for a silver cord, and for walking on water, but not for the ability for a person to pass bodily through a solid wall, (which I don't find an account of in the Gospels, just that there was a locked room which Jesus appeared in unexpectedly. And if you are willing to accept that the Gospels lie about the bodily resurrection of Jesus, then you might as easily believe that the Gospels lied about him appearing in a room which was securely locked. Therefore, since he did not necessarily walk through a wall, he need not break any natural law preventing him from doing so. [This would of course be more consistant with the stone that was rolled away from the mouth of the tomb if we assume the stone was rolled away to allow Jesus to leave the tomb.]) Your reference to a "silver cord" is of course outside of the experience of Christianity as well. So, let me point out that there are also claims made by Trancendental Meditators that people while in a deep state of meditation have passed physically through solid walls. (As well as their more widely known claims of levitation.) The TMers I know do not claim that through TM people may break the laws of nature. Their claim is that like your "silver cord" there are principles of the laws of nature that we do not yet fully understand. (Which any serious scientist must agree with.) >Yes, I would say that it is impossible, according to the natural laws, for >a physical body to pass through a wall. In the case of walking on water, I >am not so sure. It does happen that human beings sometimes have help from >animistic beings, which may seem "miraculous" to those unaware of such help. >In the same way I believe it was possible for Jesus to command the wind and >the sea, since these phenomena are also influenced by "invisible" animistic >beings, who work in the Will of God. Your appeal to "animistic beings" also reaches outside of the natural laws as we currently understand them, and yet you won't make room for the ability of a body to pass through a wall. >"Souls and spirits" are subject to the laws governing THEIR respective realms. >They are NON-physical forms and therefore would NOT be subject to physical >laws. This is entirely logical and consistent. Okay, so "Souls and spirits" must obey the laws of their realm, and matter must obey the laws of it's realm. This is itself logical and consistant. It would seem to be at odds with the Bible, unless you are willing to accept that we do not know all of the laws governing the spiritual realm, or the physical realm, or the interaction between the two realms. >What I reject is any interpretation which implies an imperfection in God, >His Holy Will, and His perfect laws in Creation. And what I am trying to explain to you is that the bodily resurrection of Jesus and the ability of Jesus body to appear in a locked room *does not* imply imperfection in God, God's Will, or the laws of Creation. It need only imply an imperfect understanding on our part of God's laws of creation. Which would be consistant with our imperfect understanding of God's Will, and of God himself. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton [Paul talks about people after death assuming a "spiritual body" (see I Cor 15). It seems reasonable to believe that Jesus' resurrected body was of that kind. Presumably it can go through walls. --clh]