Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!olivea!mintaka!geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu!rjc From: rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: NeXT software size Message-ID: <1991May10.164604.17674@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> Date: 10 May 91 16:46:04 GMT References: <21316@cbmvax.commodore.com> <84LR02ly072m01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> Sender: news@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu Organization: The Internet Lines: 155 In article <84LR02ly072m01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L. Shephard) writes: >In article <21316@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>As compared to what? The NeXT isn't architecturally that different than any >>high-end personal computer. It is noticably different than traditional > >How many personal computers have 2 huge Fujitsu gate arrays with custom >Channel Processors, 9 DMA channels on the cube, 8 on the slab. >They operate very much like the Channel Processors found on mainframes. >How many personal computers come with built in twisted pair and thin >ethernet. How many come with a DSP integrated into the system with DMA >support to peripherals. How many come with 17" monchrome or color. Perhaps you don't know much about the Amiga but the Amiga has been fully DMA driven since day 1. We have video dma, disk dma, sprite dma(8 channels), audio dma, blitter dma (4 channels), and copper dma(the video co-processor). Not to mention 32-bit SCSI DMA on the A3000 and other harddrive controllers. As for 'channel processors' (whatever they are defined as) the Gary and Agnus chips custom chips on the Amiga control 25 DMA channels. Built in ethernet is no big deal, and only usuable in a lab/office environment unless you can afford a home ethernet hookup. The thing NeXT users overplay the most is the DSP. What is it used for? IMHO NeXT really screwed up when they didn't give the DSP it's own real-time microkernel for sharing the DSP. On the Amiga, the blitter is effectively shared constantly. (Disk decoding, screen rendering, custom stuff). You can access it friendly (QB(S)lit()) or take it over completely iwth OwnBlitter(). From what I'm aware of the DSP on the NeXT, only one NeXT app can use the DSP at a time. Further more, if the DSP is not being used in anyway to speed up normal operation of the NeXT it is being wasted. So does NeXTStep use the DSP in a useful manner other than acting like a DAC/Fetch chip for playing sound? This can be done without a DSP. Does NeXT even supply a DSP compiler or do you need to know DSP assembly? >Architecturally the NeXT is about as different from anything else as you >can possibly get. You could not just get DPS and emulate a NeXT like >you can do with the Mac roms and a Mac, Atari, or Amiga for that matter. >They have similar hardware. The NeXT does not. The NeXT has more in >common, architecturally with a mainframe or mini than a PC. Sure you could. The NeXT could be emulated, but why? It's OS is a bloat and there's licensing and copyright problems. No Amigan would buy NeXTStep for the Amiga. Unix is fairly device independent. You'd have more of a problem emulating AmigaOS on the NeXT than vice-versa. >>workstations, like HP or Sun machines. It comes with a workstation sized >>display, which lets you do workstation things with it. But it doesn't have >>a faster hard disk controller than an A3000, or faster expansion bus (for >>cubes only) than an A3000 or a MCA/EISA based PC Clone. Perhaps they ship a > >The expansion may not be faster but form factor is very large. You could >fit 3x as much on NeXTbus card vs. MCA/EISA. Put 5 DSPs on a single >card in a MCA/EISA PC or an Amiga --- I don't think so. You could easily put 5 DSP's on an Amiga Zorro III card. I think Zorro III stands up nicely to the best BUSes in the business. Dave Haynie would know more about this since he designed it, but I see no limiting factor that stops you from putting 5 DSPs on a card. >>faster hard disk with it, which is the current limitation of the A3000 -- the >>Quantums are good (apparently good enough for Sun; they ship them in all the >>SparcStations we have), but if you can afford on, a Wren VI or any number of >>HPs or Fujitsus will go faster. It is true that a NeXT '040 machine, as with >>most any '040 machine, can compare favorably to modern low-end Workstations >>like the SparcStation I. >> >>Thing is, not everyone wants a Workstation. They are good for certain >>problems, but this latest "pizza box" trend is generating only closed boxes. >>That's good if you need a specific amount of memory, display, etc. but not >>so good if you're trying to suit a variety of needs. I could theoretically > >I disagree. If you want to fill a variety of needs, get something that >has everything except the kitchen sink thrown in. Something that you can >add lots of memory to (NeXTstation 32 meg, cube 64 meg). Display that >will run all software made for the machine mono or color, etc. Yes it's nice to put everything but the kitchen sink in a machine, but who is going to afford it? Why do you think NeXT made a stripped down version of the original model (the Slab)? Because people couldn't afford the Cube! The Slab is non-expandible so What-You-See-is-all-you-will-ever-get. >>replace my office A3000 here at work with a workstation; it has a 1000x800 >>monochrome display, 200MB of disk space, and ethernet. I would have to >>give up the 7 extra serial ports, but I could probably live with it. The >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Just use a SCSI adapter and get eight out of the SCSI port. Since when has SCSI become the answer(tm) to all expansion needs? Try adding a graphic card on the SCSI bus, whoops! >>BridgeCard could be replaced with a software emulator, since I'm not doing >>much with it. Of course, since the Ethernet isn't a built-in, it costs a >>bit more to hook this all up, I need an A2065 card. >> >>At home, forget it. I need my extra ports; I like two modems and a possibly >>a fax attached, plus printers and an occasional extra hardware doohicky. I >>may eventually need more memory than I can fit on the motherboard (obviously a >>VM system can trade off speed for memory). > >When the time comes (in 4-5 years??) and you need more than 32 megabytes >of real memory, it will probably be time for a new machine. Nope, on the Amiga you will just add a card that has 32+ megs of memory on it. On the NeXT you will sell your machine andbuy something else, like an Amiga. When I spend $3k on a computer, I expect it to last more than 5 years. How would you like to buy a new car every 5 years? The NeXT in general needs more memory than the Amiga since unix executables are always bloated, especially with all those non-shared link libraries. Try programming a small X-App once, or a hello world using G++ and watch those executable sizes climb. >> >>In the lab, forget it completely. Too much stuff to hook up, plus occasional >>special purpose boards, logic analyzer, scope, that kind of thing. Another >>kind of lab may need other data acquisition cards, video devices, music >>devices, etc. A workstation may have its place, but it is not a general >>purpose solution. > >Use SCSI data aquisition or the DSP, it does work. No problem with music >devices, we have midi support and the DSP. >Other video on a slab is difficult but not impossible. Look at what you >can do with a Mac SE or Classic, I've seen SCSI solutions to their video >limitations. SCSI isn't the holy grail, it can't support video bandiwdth speeds. What if your data aquisition happens to be sampling video data and performing real-time processing on it? >> >>>Mark Gardner >> >>-- >>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" >> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy >> "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M. > > >-- >/* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ >/* For I can only express my own opinions. */ >/* */ >/* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */ I'm getting tired of this NeXT debate. I thought Amigan's were defensive about their machines but the _few_ NeXT users in here seem to be arguing to the point of double-standards and contradictions to support the NeXT as the surpreme workstation. One NeXT user alone (Mike) has been generating atleast 10 posts a day. -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /