Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The missing body/Empty tomb Message-ID: Date: 11 May 91 03:11:49 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 199 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >My arguement is that: >1. Jesus bodily resurrection (and walking through walls) need not break > natural laws. Although many things are possible within the natural laws, these are not. Neither would it have been possible for Jesus to change stones to bread (and therein lay the purpose for the temptation). The point here is to show the necessity for us to become thoroughly familiar with the natural laws in Creation, which are nothing else but the expression of God's Will. >2. For God to change his laws does not require that the original laws > were imperfect. This is a difficult point, as already discussed, but also is incorrect. Although DEVELOPMENT is indeed allowed for in Creation, it is also the case that the development must take place WITHIN the framework of the Laws of Creation, or the natural laws they are also called. The Laws themselves, being the expression or manifestation of the Divine Will in Creation, could never change, any more than the Divine Will Itself could or would ever change. It is a matter of finding the true understanding of the concept of perfection, as it applies to God and to His Creation. >3. Imperfect natural laws do not refute the perfection of God. But surely they would! If we truly are convinced of the perfection of God, then we must also be convinced of the perfection of His Creation, meaning also of its Laws, which themselves unceasingly carry out Divine Justice. >A number of the acts of Jesus recorded in the Bible represent violations >of the natural laws as we understand them. So, either Jesus was able to >violate natural laws, or we do not have an adequate understanding of >what the natural laws are, or God overruled the laws of nature for the >sake of Jesus. Or some events were not correctly recorded. Or also we do not correctly interpret some of the narratives in the Bible. >Even if it were necessary for God to expand the natural laws in order >for Jesus to rise from the dead, this does not require that the natural >laws originally created were imperfect. The laws are only different. >The set of laws before Jesus can be perfect, and the set of laws after >Jesus can also be perfect. But it was not necessary to "expand" the natural laws. They were perfect from the beginning, and so how could they need to be changed in any way? It has always been possible -within the natural laws- for a human spirit to become free from the material world and to ascend into heaven. It was only that this fact needed to be demonstrated to mankind by Jesus so that we could truly become convinced of this vital happening. So that we could truly understand that people do NOT cease to exist with physical death. Did not Jesus Himself say: "Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy, but to fulfill. ..." (Matt 5:17) >For instance, early mathematics only required addition and subtraction. > ... [deleted for space] >2 dimensional geometry can be logically derived from a series of >laws or postulates. Change a postulate, you get a different geometry, >both geometries are perfect. >2 dimensional geometry can be extended to cover 3 dimensions. The 2 >dimensional geometry remains perfect, and the new 3 dimensional geometry >which was derived from it can also be perfect. But all this does not change the fact that the LAWS of mathematics always existed and have never changed. It is only our knowledge of the laws that changes and develops, not the laws themselves. Sure, we can invent our own laws, but then these are not part of Creation as such, but only human opinion or invention. >Even if it *did* imply that the laws created by God were originally >imperfect, and then perfected at the time of Jesus, this does not >require that God be imperfect, since God also created imperfect human >beings. Perhaps I did not state this clearly enough before, so here it is again: GOD DID NOT CREATE IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS !!! Perhaps it was misleading when I said that human beings can develop to perfection. It would be better to say "develop to full maturity", or to perfect self-consciousness. Human beings are PERFECTLY capable of becoming whatever we want to become. Of doing whatever we want to do. Including developing ourselves according to the Will of God into fully mature human spirits who shall be permitted to experience eternal happiness (joyful activity) in the Kingdom of God. If we choose imperfectly, then this is ENTIRELY our own RESPONSIBILITY, for it was always possible for us to have chosen otherwise. For example, a PERFECT seed can become a PERFECT tree. Both are PERFECT in that sense. But development is allowed for in Creation. Development of creatures, of forms, but NOT of the Laws of Creation. Big difference. Because all development in Creation takes place in accordance with the existing Laws of Creation, and always shall. And herein lies JUSTICE. But suppose our PERFECT seed had FREE WILL, and thereby was able to choose NOT to develop into a PERFECT tree? This does not mean that it was never a PERFECT seed, but only that it chose to MISUSE its FREE WILL and thus to develop in a direction NOT willed by the Creator. The RESPONSIBILITY for the wrong or imperfect development does NOT lie with the Creator, but only with the creature who FREELY CHOSE a wrong course of development. Creation itself, including all its Laws, was, is, and always shall be perfect. Implying that there can be no -fundamental- change within it. No change in its Laws. Only ongoing development according to the Laws. >You agree that many things are possible which appear to break natural >laws, because we are not aware of all the things which the natural laws >allow. (Why then not the passing of Jesus' body through a wall?) This is exactly why we need to "know" Creation and its Laws. So that we become aware of what is possible and what is not. Therewith we become capable of clearly seeing our path through Creation, according to the Will of God, which manifests Itself to us also in Creation itself. >>The raising of Lazarus "from the dead" for instance, was possible as >>the soul of Lazarus had not yet severed its connection with the physical >>body, i.e., the so-called silver cord often spoken of in this regard. >Your "silver cord" does not fall into the body of "natural laws" that we >have so far divined. To explain "walking on water" you assume that if >it was possible it must be due to natural laws. ... >Your reference to a "silver cord" is of course outside of the experience >of Christianity as well. ... (1) The "silver cord" is a well-known phenomenon, and I would claim that it does therefore fall into the body of "natural laws" we know about. (2) Walking on water does not require negating any physical law. For example, I could tie balloons to my feet and accomplish it. All it requires is an additional factor, which could potentially be supplied in any of several ways, including I claim, by the assistance of elemental beings. I mean no disrespect with this example, but only wish to make a point here. On the other hand, for two physical objects to occupy the same space simultaneously would require negating a physical law. Big difference. (3) I would not claim that the knowledge of the "silver cord" is entirely outside of Christianity, but even if it were, my answer would be that perhaps it is incumbent also upon Christians to strive always to increase their knowledge of Creation and its workings. But please see Ecc 12:1-6 for a reference to the "silver cord". One can always claim that it is merely "allegorical", but is it really? >Your appeal to "animistic beings" also reaches outside of the natural >laws as we currently understand them, and yet you won't make room for >the ability of a body to pass through a wall. Once again, the existence of animistic or elemental beings has been known down through the ages. I would agree that mankind has never really understood them nor their activity, but today this knowledge too is available to us in the Grail Message. The elemental beings stand and work in the natural laws. >Okay, so "Souls and spirits" must obey the laws of their realm, and >matter must obey the laws of it's realm. This is itself logical and >consistant. It would seem to be at odds with the Bible, unless you are >willing to accept that we do not know all of the laws governing the >spiritual realm, or the physical realm, or the interaction between the >two realms. I don't think it is so much at odds with Biblical happenings as with our limited human understanding and interpretation of said happenings. Once again, big difference. I think that the knowledge of God's Perfection and of His perfect Laws can serve as the foundation for our spiritual ascent. >And what I am trying to explain to you is that the bodily resurrection >of Jesus and the ability of Jesus body to appear in a locked room *does >not* imply imperfection in God, God's Will, or the laws of Creation. >It need only imply an imperfect understanding on our part of God's laws of >creation. Which would be consistant with our imperfect understanding of >God's Will, and of God himself. But taking it the other way, the better we learn to know Creation, which means to know the Will of God made manifest in its laws, the better we will be able to understand the actual significance of Biblical events. And I say that this is knowledge that we are all meant to find. Best regards, Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801