Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: the Sabbath & Soul... Message-ID: Date: 11 May 91 03:38:34 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Science, Victoria University, Wellington, NewZealand Lines: 89 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) writes: (Actually it seems tha Drew Corrigan wrotye this, but it came out under my name ??????????!!!!!!!!!) |> He jumps over to his on-line KJV and types: |> |> drew@pollux% grep faith * |grep alone |> 59.james:JAM 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, |> being alone. |> drew@pollux% |> |> It seems that 'FAITH ALONE' is not supported by the Bible. Place the verse in context, please... the whole point of what James (the apostle) was saying is that 'head knowlege' of God is not enough, that faith, rather than an intellectual belief, must be of the heart. I seem to recall that Martin Luther disliked this verse because it seemed to teach salvation by works - of course it doesn't, because of Romans 11:6 (or thereabouts): "Therefore we conclude that Man is saved by faith, apart from the works of the law, for if by faith, then no more by works, else faith is no more faith, and if by works, then no more by faith, else works is no more works" (It's not word perfect, just an approximation of the KJV rendering) faith & works can't be mixed as a way to salvation - you either have one or the other. (refer also to parallel verses) The Christian way is faith, therefore, James 2:17 can not possibly mean you must have 'faith and works' to be saved - within the context of the Bible such an interpretation is unsupported, as far as I can see. |> Actually, this issue rather bemuses me (and this is not an attack on Jim or |> anyone else). There have always been Christians down through history |> who have |> observed 'the Law', save the sacrifices and those components |> specifically |> nationalistic or ritualistic (eg washings). And not as a means of |> 'earning |> salvation', but simply because they believed it was the right thing |> to do. Good for these individual's IF they found it from their own personal studies and were not just following what some HUMAN said "God wants for his people". All too often, the issue of 'doing the right thing' is elevated to a salvation matter - if you don't do the 'right thing' according to the particular group then God will condemn you... I can't believe that God wants anyone to keep any laws, because that would violate 'faith alone'. The issue of keeping laws should be an individual choice, not a "Saved if you do, Damned if you don't" matter. Trying to keep 'the law' is futile, because you have failed before you even start - read Galatians, etc... |> Put another way, they had faith that God's Laws were good for them as |> a means |> of regulating human conduct and having a healthy relationship with |> God. Perhaps these people should have faith in God, rather than faith in a set of rules that some human extols ? Having a healthy relationship with God for Christians is not dependant on law-keeping - what has always mattered is faith in God. People can 'keep the laws' without loving God - loving God is not about law-keeping - it's about LOVE and FAITH - it's what the NT is all about, for me. The issue of social control has historically been one of the purposes of religion - and human made rules for this have all too often been presented as 'Gods rules' - just look at the effect of the so-called 'Gods rules' - it's the cause of what Judeo-Christian society is today (Patriachal power systems, Racism, Sexism, etc. all have their roots in people presenting their own rules as 'Gods rules' - you'll see it in the Bible, you'll see it 'fundamental' religion today.) |> Some Christians continue that tradition today. Ask any one of them whether |> they feel under a 'burden', and they will ask, 'What do you mean?' |> Anyone who |> has truely kept the Laws of God will know that they are an |> exhilarating joy to |> observe ... One wonders just how one finds out which of God's laws one is to keep. I really want to know. (the Bible is so full of laws, but not all of them seem to be kept by the people you refer to.) I don't think that I'll get more exhileration out of 'law keeping' than I do at the moment, being sure of my salvation by faith alone... Jim.