Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Minimum Requirements (Was Re: the Sabbath & Soul... Message-ID: Date: 11 May 91 03:47:19 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Science, Victoria University, Wellington, NewZealand Lines: 73 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: |> Such an interpretation begs several questions: |> |> 1) How do you explain Jesus' response to the lawyer about how to |> have eternal life "keep the commandments?" (Including a list of |> several |> of them). Give me a Bible reference, please, I've never seen this verse. (chances are there is a faulty interpretation, here !) (And remember, nobody can ever 'keep' the commandments - we all fail - unless someone would claim to be perfect ??!!) |> 2) What other standard exists in the Bible to objectively determine |> whether or not you are loving God and your neighbor? Objectivity is a myth for humans - the only way to be objective is to not use your mind, are you prepared to do this ? Each person must be true to themselves - Loving God or your neighbor is not tested by any law, anywhere - such matters may be obeyed without Loving God and your neighbour ! is that objective ??? Each person themselves must love God and their neighbour - not keep laws !!! |> 3) Why does it matter to you whether keeping the commandments is |> required for salvation or not? Do you wish to do only the minimum? |> Which ones (besides the fourth) do you propose to violate? It matters to me because of the whole of the NT, Jesus dying on the cross, Galatians, Romans, all of it - because there is no way that law-keeping and faith can be mixed as a path to salvation ! (law-keeping for salvation is quite illogical with respect to the NT) There is no minimum, nor any maximum for us - Christians are not bound by any laws ! (Jesus, Galatians, Romans, Timothy, etc...) I can't and don't violate any laws - I'm not bound by any !!! (this is not to say that things are not philosophically 'right' or 'wrong' eg murder, stealing, lying. Adultery is another kettle of fish, encompassing sexuality as it does.) To keep the laws that you or anyone else (NOTE: NOT God) say that I should keep would be wrong - it is not within my faith in God to do so. |> 4) Since you believe you are saved by "faith alone" explain why trying |> to get this faith is any less "works" than trying to keep the law. |> (This is not to imply that I don't also believe I'm saved by faith alone) Easy - consider all that is intangible about my faith - my trust, my love, my belief, etc. these are not 'works' by any stretch of the imagination - they are part of everyone's being and don't have to be 'obtained'. I never had to 'try' to 'get' the faith, God supplied the grace for my salvation and I accepted - nothing 'works' about it !!! (don't ask me to judge others salvation if they choose not to accept, I'm not God, I [fortunately] don't have to choose these things.) Trying to keep the 'law' to be saved is a lost cause - has been always ! (Jesus, Galatians, Timothy, Romans, Etc, Etc, Etc !) Jim. P.S. According to whom do I violate the 'Fourth Commandment' (extra-scriptural reference, please, I know what the Bible says) [I think the reference is to Jesus' encounter with the rich young man, Mt 19:16-30, Mk 10:17-31, Lk 18:18-30. The man asks Jesus what he has to do to be saved. Jesus replies (in Mt) "Why do you ask me concerning what is good? There is only One who is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter [eternal] life." "What commandments?" At this point Jesus lists 5 of the 10 commandments, and adds "love your neighbor as you love yourself", which is from Lev. 19:18. --clh]