Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: On faith and works Message-ID: Date: 13 May 91 08:12:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 73 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu writes: > Recently, we seem to have gotten into one the perennial topics: faith > and works. > > The common Protestant view is that it is faith that justifies, but > works are a necessary consequence. If they don't follow, we have good > grounds to doubt whether faith is really present. I can't really > object to this formulation, but it isn't the one I normally use. In > my view, what really saves us is *neither* our faith nor our works, > but God's grace. Actually what you have just said is a very Lutheran statement. In fact your statement on 'the common Protestant view' is almost a straw man, at least as far as Lutherans are concerned. The Augsburg confession states, simply and clearly, "It is also taught among us that we cannot obtain forgiveness of sin and righteousness before God by our own merits, works, or satisfactions, but that we receive forgiveness of sin and become righteous before God *by grace, for Christ's sake, through faith*, **when we believe** [not if] that Christ suffered for us and that for his sake our sin is forgiven and righteousness and eternal life are given to us. For God will regard and reckon this faith as righteousness, as Paul says in Romans 3:21-26 and 4:5." It is true that Paul wrote, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." But the whole theme of this part of Romans is 'righteousness from God'. "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." --Romans 3:21,22. As we have discussed before, the best summary seems to be Ephesians 2:8-10: "For it is by grace you havce been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works , so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." That little passage ties in justification, election, conversion, good works, grace, and faith, and puts them all in their proper places. [On Mt 19:16-30 (the rich young ruler) --clh] > I see some complexities in the story of the rich young > ruler. These make it a bit more than simply "the way to be saved is > to obey the comamndments". [deletion] > The major signs of complexity are the following: (1) The man starts > out by calling Jesus "good teacher". Jesus responds "No one is good > but God alone". (2) After listing the commandments, the man says he > has carried them out. Jesus doesn't just say "OK, then you're saved". > He challenges the man further. [deletion] > ... While the term "justification by faith" isn't used, it seems to > me that something similar is being said. The man is expected to obey > the commandments, but in the context of reliance on God and Christ, > not as an end in itself. What you have just given is, as far as I know, the standard Lutheran interpretation of this and the parallel passages. See, for example, the Concordia Self-Study Bible, or Kretzman's Popular Commentary. Yours is an interesting example of how we struggle with the Word. If we think we have a new idea, we work very hard on it, and are more pleased with our conclusions, than if someone simply taught it to us. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [I certainly didn't mean to claim originality. I looked at several commentaries and other sources in writing that posting. --clh]