Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: ambitious women may approach the altar now ... Message-ID: Date: 13 May 91 06:35:07 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH Lines: 79 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Re: Joseph H Buehler In article , jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) writes, in response to Karl Henning: >> There is less in divine will about refusing to allow women in the >> pulpits, as there is of intersexual insecurity on the part of men >> in institutionalizing the lie that women aren't suitable/intelligent >> enough/wise enough/up to the responsibility, to teach (gasp) men. >Leaving aside the Scriptural arguments, here are a couple things that >indicate the respective roles of men and women to me as a Catholic: Hi, Joe! (I must say, I'm not terribly fond of the subject line of this thread; it implies that it is somehow "ambitious" of people to desire to be priests, which is an *absolute* antithesis to the true purpose of the priesthood... gender being completely irrelevant to the issue.) I understand that the below points are your personal views, and not your attempt at reciting Vatican opinion; nevertheless, I must take strong exception to several points that you make: >- The Catholic hierarchy is all male, by Divine will. Women cannot be >validly ordained, and cannot exercise ecclesiastical jurisdiction. The second sentence is true, up to a point, while the first is untrue. Women cannot be validly ordained, that's true... AT PRESENT. It is not Catholic moral teaching that inhibits women from being ordained, but rather it is procedural doctrine of the Church as institution; that is, the prohibition against female clergy is a procedural tradition that is NOT infallible moral teaching, and is capable of being reversed by the Pope at a moment's notice. Moreover, it would be unjustified to say that clerical patriarchy is Divine Will; it is long-standing tradition, true, but certainly not from any "inherent inferiority" of women in clerical roles! This would directly contradict the letter and the spirit of the Vatican II writings, which explicitly condemn all shades of gender discrimination. I'm inclined to think that the Pope is aware of the maturity of the earthly Church, and that at this stage, the Church simply isn't ready to COPE with women priests; to force the issue might well force the Church into another major schism, which, needless to say, would be disastrous. I personally feel that the lifting of the gender restriction on clergy is simply a matter of time. >- God became Incarnate as a man. True. But, not meaning to be disrespectful, *so what?* I can easily see that God, wishing His Messiah to be taken SERIOUSLY by the socially immature, male-dominated society, would decline to incarnate the Messiah as woman. But this serves as no basis whatsoever for asserting that men are somehow "more intrinsically holy" than women. Had the society of yesteryear been more understanding of the intrinsic worth of ALL humans, gender notwithstanding, God might well have become incarnate as woman. Point to ponder. >I think role reversal is a big problem in the West at the moment. In >fact, I think there are few things that are causing more problems in >families at the moment than bossy women and submissive men. In my experience, the instances of where individual women impose their wills on men to the point of causing true suffering are quite rare. History, on the other hand, points to thousands of years of oppression of the female population by the male. Now, this is NOT to say that women are entitled to equal "abusive time"; I am NOT a supporter of "affirmative action", as such. But I *do* wish to assert that ALL humans have a solemn moral obligation to respect the rights of others as if those rights were their own. Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu