Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!apple!voder!nsc!amdahl!JUTS!duts!kls30 From: kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: NeXT software size Message-ID: <9ad102bc07Ki01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> Date: 15 May 91 16:28:03 GMT References: <4d7Gypu=1@cs.psu.edu> <1991May5.124008.24559@sugar.hackercorp.com> <81en02.g073H01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> <1991May13.005323.859@sugar.hackercorp.com> Sender: netnews@ccc.amdahl.com Reply-To: kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA Lines: 96 In article <1991May13.005323.859@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <81en02.g073H01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L. Shephard) writes: >> Only when it is running UNIX is it a workstation. Amiga DOS does not >> qualify as a workstation OS. It is definitely not multiuser and does not >> do virtual memory. > >Oh boy, now we get to argue definitions again for a while. > >In case you hadn't noticed, I *like* doing that. > >Let's start with the definition of "workstation". How about the Carnegie >Mellon "3M" rating? The 3000 certainly blows that out of the water. Of course, >it's a trifle dated... You are the one who statred with saying that if a machine didn't have VM it didn't have a 32bit OS. My definition of a Workstation is something that is not constrained by physical memory. Which means if it don't have VM it ain't a workstation. You introduce your definitions I'll introduce mine. > >> >But even as UNIX workstations go the NeXT is pretty wasteful of space. Plain >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> How?????? > >Well, it takes more memory to run NeXTStep efficiently than it does to run >X. QED. Well I have a SPARCstation on the desk next to me and to run efficiently it needs 12-16Mb of ram. How is the NeXT any different. I have 12Mb in my machine at home ant the performance is much better than the SPARC next to me. > >> >with the NeXT is they took an intermediate port of a research O/S (Mach) and >> >used it. They didn't wait for (or do themselves) a real microkernel version, >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> It is not an intermediate research port.I suppose Mt XINU is a research >> port too????? > >Uh-huh. Well if you want to be specific Mach in what ever form you have will be a research port. So what do you do, wait until CMU tells you "We have all the Multiprocessor support built into Mach now we will release it." You machine would never make it out of the door. Mach is still evolving just like Unix, AmigaDOS, Mac OS, and MS DOS. Are you saying that Mach on the NeXT is buggy??? INMHO - It is more solid than most Unix boxes I've worked on. Mine at doesn't crash and lock up like the some machines I've seen and definitly doesn't lock up like my PC or a Mac. > >> >so the NeXT system image takes up 30M of VM before you load any apps. Why? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Where do you get your numbers from. > >NeXT employees at trade shows. You talked to someone that did not know what they were talking about. My machine with the VM swap space set to 1M will boot and run fine. 30M of VM before you load any apps is total bull. Now the OS itself takes 30M of disk space for utilities and all that. But NOT 30M VM at startup. Go to a NeXT machine and look under /privite/vm and look at the swapfile. > >> >It's got two operating systems in there: Mach *plus* most of BSD. >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> You should learn something about the NeXT and Mach. Mach is a kernal that >> runs under BSD. The NeXT uses UNIX with a Mach kernal. > >No, BSD is an emulator that runs under Mach. I think you need to learn >something about it yourself. Send off to CMU for the Mach documents. They're >happy to mail them to anyone who asks. It'll put all this specmanship in >perspective. I do know about Mach. I have the documentation. You are assuming that NeXT is using the full Mach OS. The NeXT uses BSD with a Mach kernal. This information comes from: 1. David Black - Known expert on Mach and gave tutorial at IEEE CompCon this spring. 2. NeXT lterature also states that the machine is running BSD. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' >. -- /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */