Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi!caen!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news From: melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: Blitter vs. 040 (was: Computer Architecture question Message-ID: <0sHyo86@cs.psu.edu> Date: 16 May 91 23:32:23 GMT References: <1991May15.125954.1993@NCoast.ORG> <1991May16.045252.7706@NCoast.ORG> <7haHkcs5@cs.psu.edu> <91136.174737MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@cs.psu.edu (Usenet) Organization: Penn State Computer Science Lines: 102 In-Reply-To: MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu's message of 16 May 91 21: 47:37 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: sunws0.sys.cs.psu.edu In article <91136.174737MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (That neat guy, Mark Sachs) writes: And you think this is going to change people's minds? The NeXT emulating a PC costs scads more than a PC. Result: Businesses buy PC's rather than move to an expensive, untested, incompatible platform made by a shaky company with no name recognition. (And please, don't start blathering about "it's not untested, etc. etc..." Right or wrong, that's how the suits perceive NeXT. The only way they'll buy NeXT is if it offers some smashingly super new application IBM can't provide. Macintosh does desktop publishing; Amiga does video and multimedia. What does NeXT do? Well, uh...) Like Improv? And you have to pay a lot more money to get an equivalent Macintosh DTP machine. You emulate the PC in software, so you don't have to buy the piece of junk. The native NeXT apps are what you really want the machine for. >Right, but adding N to N doubles your performance, while adding N to >3N gives you 33% more power(going from a 25MHz 040 to 33MHz one will >do this). Of course, we just can't add the mips, because the blitter >is dedicate to graphics. So, which chip do you let do the graphics? >The one that does N mips or 3N mips? That's it; you've out-weirded me. I don't see the point of your first statement at all. Where in the world are you getting N + N in a NeXT? Is there another N + N is in the A3000 at this moment. The blitter(==030) + 030. The NeXT currently has 3N mips. 68040 hidden in there that Jobs isn't telling us about? Quite simply, the 68040 NeXT has N. The 68040 Amiga has N + 1/3 N. Period. (Actually it's more like N + 1/2 N, but for the sake of argument...) No, you were right the first time. An 040 Amiga *will* have 4*N mips, with N of those mips dedicated to graphics. The system seems like it will be a little unbalanced to me. You are desperately trying to make it look like having an extra coprocessor chip to do the graphics is a liability. That is ludicrous. No, you missed where I said was N=68030, and you are assuming the A3000 currently has a 68040 in it. To answer your question: The timewasting graphics tasks are offloaded to the N mips processor (blitter), while the 3N mips processor (68040) gets on with all the difficult CPU-type calculations. Together, the two finish long before the NeXT's lone 68040, which is desperately switching between graphics and calculations and as a result is left in the dust, thanks to the tragic lack of any coprocessor at all. You will have 33% more power than the NeXT. Not exactly an earth shattering amount, but you still won't have memory protection, virtual memory, OS support for 24 bit color, Display Postscript, a 17" 92 dpi monitor or a decent word processor. Need I go on? > >Not necessarily. Can I pick the 1 CPU? I would think that it depends > Sure, but unless you missed the point, whatever you pick I also > get, PLUS I get another CPU as well. > >The value of the blitter diminishes as you add it to a faster CPU. >Adding it to HP's 57 mip Snake($12K) isn't going to do shit. Well, to >be fair, it will probably get in the way. Non sequitor. We are NOT adding it to HP's 57 mip Snake. If it ever gets to the point that the Amiga CPU is running at 57 mips, presumably the old blitter will have been ditched long ago in favor of a new, much faster one. What say we resume this discussion in 2005 and see what happened. That's 57mips for $12K. It's not going to be 2005, it's going to be in two years. Hell, expect at least 30 mips NeXT year from several vendors in < $10K computers. Today, in 1991, the blitter still adds a lot of speed and functionality to the Amiga, which the NeXT does NOT have. Speed for what? Most of the work people do doesn't require dedicate graphics hardware. As for functionality, how about getting some Postscript fonts? Apple and MS Windows have Adobe Type manager and they will have True Type. The NeXT, of course, has 100% Postscript. Let me know how well the 88K or R4000 (I love these magic numbers Mike keeps throwing around) fits into your current NeXT when it comes time to make a bigger and better NeXT. They won't drop right in. That's a point that I've been trying to make. Save your pennies, because you aren't going to be able to take a current generation computer, and easily move it to the NeXT generation. Therefore buy a NeXTstation if you don't need video. The money you save doing that will almost buy a NeXT generation NeXTstation. Oh, you can't fit them into your current NeXT, because it's unexpandable. Sorry. (Yes, it's a cheap shot but I think I deserve one after trying to reason with this guy.) Can I pull out the logic board and drop in another? Isn't everything in the NeXT on one board. What NeXT will do about upgrades is unknown. Is putting in another logic board out of the question? Basically what they did for the 040 upgrades in the Cube. -Mike