Xref: utzoo alt.sys.sun:3937 comp.org.sug:139 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!limbo!taylor From: taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) Newsgroups: alt.sys.sun,comp.org.sug Subject: Re: Sun User's Group & COPS Message-ID: <2025@limbo.Intuitive.Com> Date: 20 May 91 17:56:01 GMT References: <25429@as0c.sei.cmu.edu> <1991May14.234340.15041@menudo.uh.edu> <1991May15.145403.22000@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> <6296@trantor.harris-atd.com> Reply-To: taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) Followup-To: alt.sys.sun Organization: Intuitive Systems, Mountain View, CA: +1 (415) 966-1151 Lines: 111 [note: I've opted not to mail this directly to the SUG board, because I feel strongly that this discussion should take place in this public forum for all members to read, rather than privately in email.] As a fellow contributor to the SUG CDROM (The Elm Mail System) and a member of SUG, I'd like to add a few thoughts to this important discussion... First off, I will very loudly echo Chucks' request that we in SUG get a complete accounting of the expenses involved with the production of the CDROM, including projected budgets for the rest of the process (pressing, shipping, advertising, etc). Are we planning on offering the CDROM to semi-affiliated groups? (e.g. perhaps an advert in the Usenix ";login:"? Or some blurb in the UniForum "UniNews" newsletter/CommUNIXations magazine? What about the Sun periodicals -- SunWorld, Sun Expert, Sun Observer, and even the upcoming UnixToday! Sun insert? What about SUN? And the many clone makers? And SPARC International, and...) Has the disk been 'beta tested' yet? Putting a vast body of information onto a platter is a lot more than fiddling with directory structures. Have we actually had relatively un-technologically-sophisticated people try to figure out how to navigate/configure software on the disk? Does it have binaries for the 386i systems? The Sun-3 systems? Or is it just SPARC? Which libraries? Which compilers? Which OS release? Did we give SPARC International a chance to perhaps contribute to this by attempting to run their SPARC Compliance Test on the apps (or even include the test?!)? It would be of tremendous value to know which applications on the disk were actually SPARC compliant, rather than just able to run on a Sun system. Esp. for those that will be buying the clones as they appear... value added... Further, this pressing is a long term project, not s short term one; I expect that the programs on this disk will be worthwhile for years to come, which means that we should be able to continue to *sell* the disk for years to come too. Certainly a reasonable structure for pricing would be for it to drop dramatically in price as a new disk full of all *new* applications (even if just in release version or SPARC support) is released, so it's a genuine resource of source code/applications. Has anyone considered the educational value of this CDROM and talked with any of the standard educational software distribution channels about the CDROM? Having hundreds of megabytes of the best Unix application software, with source code, could be an excellent teaching tool for colleges, especially those that might not have particularly good internet connections... In general, I'd like to, as a member of SUG and contributor, see the project proposal and plan of execution for this project. As far as the pricing, I am afraid that I throw my hat in with the crowd here and agree that it's too darn expensive for what it is. Indeed, off the top of my head, I surmise that a current college student would have been thrilled to have received a part-time job with SUG at, say, $25/hr, to configure, compile, and build the information that ultimately would go on to the CDROM. And if we assume that it'll take six months at 20 hrs/week, that's, um, (pops up a calculator app :-) $13000 salary expense. If we divide it out and assume that we're going to get, say, only 300 disks sold, then we're talking about a per-disk cost of the student of $43. Add that to the mastering cost, the printing cost, and an advertising budget, and we've got, what, $75/disk? Further, I will assert that if we honestly don't think that we're going to sell more than about 100 disks, as has been insinuated by various folk in this group, then why did we do the project? Or, to put it more succinctly; if we are funding this project because it's a cool idea, then why isn't the entire organization covering the expenses, rather than the buyers? We are, after all, a not-for-profit org, and it's within the bylines, I suspect. That is, it *can* lose money for the organization and still be a worthwhile and popular project. One thing I found surprising was that SUG bought an entire computer set up for this project, as was noted in an earlier message. The word 'boondoggle' flashes into my mind, and I wonder what happens to the system once the disk is mastered? Is it going to be sold back into the market, with the profits helping to offset the pre-production costs and generally lowering the price of the disk? Did anyone, as an alternative, approach Sun and *ask* for a system on loan for this project, with the perk to Sun that they'd be able to offer the CDROM to their direct customers too? (with the added SUG benefit that we could have a nice advert for the Org not just on the disk, but in the information itself too. The Mac community does this sorta marketing gig every day, with great success...) Finally, this time as a contributor, I believe that I should have been offered a copy of the CDROM gratis, simply because it was my software and applications like it that helped make this project possible in the first place. The selection criteria I suggest: if you signed a contract, you get a disk. After all, these sort of costs should have been factored into the original project anyway, so no gerrymandering should be possible. (that is, if we figured in advance that we'd include 70 applications on the disk, from 50 different authors, we'd know how many contracts to send out, and also how many free CDROMs to factor in too. And after all, since the per-disk production cost is so cheap, an added 50 disks, even including postage, would be negligible here) I will stop here and await some response, rather than get into some of the more abstruse marketing aspects of using tape sales as a predictor of CDROM sales, non-profits advertising, creation of a commodity, and so on... ;-) -- Dave Taylor Intuitive Systems Mountain View, California taylor@limbo.intuitive.com or {uunet!}{decwrl,apple}!limbo!taylor