Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Sotah 49a-49b Message-ID: Date: 23 May 91 01:03:26 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 71 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes: >Why shouldn't Christian Jews call themselves Jews? Jesus was a Jew. >Was his disciple Peter a Jew? Were his apostles Jewish? Halachically, yes (sorry, by Jewish law)... Socially and theologically, NO! >As Christians, we believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. If a >Jewish Christian believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and does not call >himself Jewish, then is he not being dishonest. > >I know of Messianics who keep kosher and keep the law. Are we talking about the torah m'sinai or Rabbinic Judaism (to any Jews out there - sorry to use this term!) ? The Rabbis clearly deny that the Mashiach is Yeshuah ben Ploni. And Rabbinic Jews are the only people around today who are Jews (there are no Karaites left). > You say that >they are not Jewish, yet there are reformed Jews who do not keep any >of the food ordinances, are these Jews? Let's assume these people observe most of the law that is associated with today's Judaism. So what? If the Messiah has come then there should have been some changes made to those observances. The Judaism that says the Messiah has come is VERY different from the one that is still waiting. Now let's take the other side of your argument. There are certainly plenty of Jews out there who aren't observant or who have decided to reinterpret scripture. However, as far as philosophy goes they are still identifiable as Jews. In fact, they have decided that the philosophy is the most important thing in Judaism. This is in clear contrast to these so-called "Messianic Jews". The theology (theology and philosophy are inseparable in Judaism and come under the same name - hashkafah) that Xianity teaches is in very strong conflict with Judaism. The two theologies are not compatible. So, on one hand you have people who deny the everyday law, but elevate hashkafah to a level that is beyond that seen in most Jews. On the other, you have people who keep the acoutrements of Judaism, but deny its very soul. Who would you say is more Jewish? I am not going to deny that some of these "Messianic Jews" are, indeed, born of Jewish mothers. However, what they are trying to push on us is that Judaism and Xianity are somehow reconcilable. This is a true heresy and should be fought vehemently by both religions. As far as why Judaism and Xianity aren't reconcilable, out of respect for this forum I will direct interested parties to talk.religion.misc where this discussion is currently underway in full flame :-) James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu A tad bit of a background - I am currently converting to Judaism from a Fundamentalist Baptist upbringing. and yes, it's out of conviction :-) -- (I've got Joe Applegate and Messianic in my scj kill file... but I read t.r.misc, if you have something to say about what I write on those subjects, then post there and not in scj)