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From: aloise@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Jim Aloise)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Consciousness and Buddhism
Message-ID: <1991May21.155358.12263@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: 21 May 91 15:53:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: nas.1991May21.155358.12263
References: <1991May16.203346.2760@nas.nasa.gov>
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In article <1991May16.203346.2760@nas.nasa.gov> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:
>In response to a letter from pingali:
>
>*My comments are surrounded by asterisks. johnw* 
>
>Hi,
>
>There has been the experience of thoughts arising and
>passing away and there is the question "Who is the 
>knower"? There is no "knower". 
>
>*This is not so. Obviously, you know your thoughts. You are the
> knower of them.*
>
>There is only "knowing".
>
>*Correct there is the knowing process. But how can you leave out the
> knower? There is the thing known (thought), the subject (you), and
> the perception of knowing* 
>
This brings to mind the saying - The knower of the known is not knowable.
If you think about it, you see that it's a hall of mirrors.
What empowers this trinity, is beyond knowledge.
And from another angle - The knower is known in knowledge. 
Where else would you find him!

>But meditation does not end there. Not only are thoughts
>transient and fleeting - consciousness itself is fleeting
>and transient. It also is an empty phenomenon that arises
>and passes away. 
>
>*No. I maintain that this is the biggest error made by interpreters
> of Buddhism. Consciousness is not a phenonmenon (an object), it
> is non-objective. It does not arise nor does it pass away. Knowingness
> or the act of perception of things rises and falls, but awareness, pure
> subjectivity, does not cease at any time.*
>
Yes, I agree with this. There is awareness even when there are no thoughts.
Else how would you know that there are no thoughts.
(I do have a feeling here that we might have a more fruitful discussion given a
definition of thought, consciousness and awareness.)