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From: japlady@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Rebecca Radnor)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Realizing Non-duality (Long)
Summary: Response to "non-duality..."
Keywords: Non-duality
Message-ID: <1991May21.155411.12320@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: 21 May 91 15:54:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: nas.1991May21.155411.12320
References: <1991May21.023542.21808@nas.nasa.gov>
Sender: news@nas.nasa.gov
Organization: Northwestern University
Lines: 52
Approved: prabhu@amelia.nas.nasa.gov

John,
     Sorry for assuming your affiliation w/ the Tib. lineage.  I was
wondering, who is your teacher?  
     As far as the attainment of wisdom is concerned I agree with you (to
some extent) that an association with an 'enlightened being' is beneficial.
But I am concerned with your assertion regarding the depth of your
teacher's insight, not so much in terms of my standards of what
enlightenment is, but the very notion of comparison.  The obvious question,
as raised by other participants, is how do you know he/she is fully
enlightened? Also, by what standard do you base your judgment of who is
more enlightened than another?  It seems to me that when one engages in
this type of comparison one is, at best, clouded by one's own prejudices
or, at worst, 'doing propaganda' for one's own teacher/tradition, etc. 
     It is a good idea to acknowledge that, as human beings, we crave
CERTAINTY, and one assurance of this is to believe in some fully awakened
teacher who will show us the correct path, do the right thing, etc.  If
this teacher of yours were to be found in a compromising position (as some
gurus, zen masters, etc have), would disillusionment follow?  Do you see
the games our mind plays on us?  The very notion of the perfect/imperfect
idea stems from our thinking.  To see the shortcomings of this outlook is
important, for even enlightened persons who are all too human can teach us
a thing or two.
     There is a more important issue here regarding the dialogue with
others on the nets.  By assuming-- actually you can assume, rather the
PUBLIC assertion that your teacher is fully awakened puts you in a position
of authority since we who have no access to him/her are at a disadvantage.
>From this perspective, all you have to do is keep pushing your view of
ultimate reality to us unfortunate ones, because it is you who have the
good fortune of living with the embodiment of wisdom.  In actuality, you
are caught in the vicious circle most bible thumpers are (this is not a
judgment of your teacher; he may be a bodhisattva for all I know).  What is
this circle? 1) we really should accept your viewpoint because 2) you are
exposed to the true teachings since 3) your master is the fully enlightened
one, the reality of this judgment being that it is your viewpoint (#1) that
he is indeed enlightened. 
     I apologize if my remarks seem abrasive; but let us keep in mind that
most westerners who leave their given traditions (i.e., xtianity, etc.)
usually follow a 'new' path with the same exclusivness and ferver that
drove them away from their original 'faith'.  Before you tell us of your
teacher's spiritual status again, please consider my (erroneous?)
observation.
     As aconcluding note, let me say that it would be safe for all of us to
assume that our words, explanations, and analyses do not accurately mirror
"reality". In other words, our discussions are for the most part
theoretical (this does not mean our ideas are 'wrong' but only partial; the
insights we discuss are derivative of learning from spiritual guides,
reading texts, personal meditation, etc.), and that our exchange of ideas
will be of mutual help to all, but that no one idea shall reign supreme.
     OK, enough 'preaching'.
                                           J. Cha  c/o japlady (will
finally get my own account next week)