Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!randvax!segue!jim
From: jim@segue.segue.com (Jim Balter)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: Certainly NOT Re: tty security problems under SunOS 4.1 and SunOS 4.1.1
Message-ID: <7631@segue.segue.com>
Date: 22 May 91 06:16:49 GMT
References: <25239:May1416:21:3591@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> <1991May14.184506.4756@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <7601@segue.segue.com> <azvI79R9b6Fv2@idunno.Princeton.EDU>
Reply-To: jim@segue.segue.com (Jim Balter)
Organization: Segue Software, Inc. - Santa Monica, CA. +1-213-453-2161
Lines: 40

In article <azvI79R9b6Fv2@idunno.Princeton.EDU> subbarao@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Kartik Subbarao) writes:
>In article <7601@segue.segue.com> jim@segue.segue.com (Jim Balter) writes:
>>It might be better if programmers were given intense
>>analytical training before being let near a computer, with its instantly
>>gratifying feedback.
>
>Wait a sec. Exactly what are you trying to say here? Are you saying that
>programmers should study books on programming well before they type one in
>and see that it works?

I'm talking analysis, and you jump right past that to technique.  Many
programmers spend most of their time "typing one in to see that it works"
without analyzing the problem.  This is penny wise and pound foolish and leads
to high software costs.

>You just *can't* learn programming offline.

Learn any way you want, as long as it doesn't lead to actually carrying out
programming tasks (I wasn't talking about how to learn programming; where
did you get that idea?) by leaping into the code and trying every combination
of keystrokes until one is found that appears to work (and leaving all the
error cases, boundary conditions, race conditions, elimination of duplication
and bad coupling, algorithmic sloth, etc. to others).  You can certainly learn
to *think* offline, and that is what I was talking about.

Even in the limited area of programming technique, many programmers severely
underutilitize their programming language, OS, and other tools because they
have never thoroughly RTFM.  Read the book first or read it as you work the
exercises, but read it thoroughly if you want to be a master of your trade.

>What's wrong with instantly gratifying feedback?

It tends to devalue problem aspects that aren't immediately evident.

>And what the hell does this have to do with tty security problems
>under SunOS 4.1 and SunOS 4.1.1?

My comments were side remarks in another context; you're the one who chose to
turn this into a discussion.  Perhaps you should have addressed that question
to all the ad hominem ranting and raving that preceded it.