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From: tom@fibermux.com (Tom Dietz)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Book Review: Against Our Will
Message-ID: <1991May22.182249.25624@fibermux.com>
Date: 22 May 91 18:22:49 GMT
References: <1991May15.144955.22072@aero.org> <7906@alvin.mcnc.org>
Sender: news@aero.org
Reply-To: fibermux!tom@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Dietz)
Organization: Fibermux Corporation
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Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
Status: R
Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org


In article <7906@alvin.mcnc.org> ge@mcnc.org.UUCP (George Entenman) writes:
>
>I think that Brownmiller is perfectly aware of this continuum.
>In my opinion, the point she is making is *not* that all men
>are rapists, but that all men *benefit* from the actions of
>rapists.
>
>I'm sure that most of the men reading this newsgroup would
>never rape a woman or force her to have sex in any way.  We're
>nice guys.
>
>But I submit that we all *benefit* from rape, whether we wish to
>or not.  We have no more choice in the matter than those of us
>who are white benefit from living in a racist world.
>
>It's not hard to imagine how we "nice guys" benefit.  Women
>need us to escort them at night or in dangerous areas.  We
>fantasize about rescuing grateful women from a rapist (and here
>I would ask the male readers of this newsgroup to look honestly
>at themselves).  We get to post understanding articles to this
>newsgroup and to feel accepted and needed by women.  And many
>men benefit from having wives and girlfriends who are not free
>to move about at night, for example.

 I guess the problem I have with your argument is that I see the attitudes
which you have viewed as perpetuating both racism and rape.  The logic that
I am using here is; if I feel something benefits me, I am all for it, I
think that I, as with all people, am selfish, and therefore react positively
to things that benefit me.

I do not feel that racism benefits me as a white person. I feelt that racism
hurts me and society in general. An example would be economic (from a 
capitalist POV); if a group is discriminated against through hiring and
un-fair pay, they do not have money to spend on products and services. The
affect is to stiffle the market potential, therefore lowering everybody's
standard of living.

As for rape, I do not see how having women living in fear of men benefits
me, "nice guys", or any other men. If women are afraid of men (in general),
does that not also mean women distrust men? and then does it not follow that
it is more difficult to build friendships and relationships (assuming this
was the benefit to the "nice guys" mentioned); these being built on trust?


If the direct victims of racism and rape use the argument that these acts
benefit the race and gender that the racist and rapist belong to, how can
they expect the support of that group? A much better tactic would be to
enlist the support of the (mis)perceived benefactors, through showing
how these acts do not benefit them, but harm them.
>
>##########################################################################
>#                         George Entenman (ge@mcnc.org)                  #
># Besta e tu'             5 Bartram Drive                                #
># Se voce' na~o viver     Chapel Hill, NC 27514-4405			 #
>#   neste mundo....       919/942-5858					 #
>##########################################################################

Tom

P.S. it was my intent in this response to show how, from a purely selfish
point of view, racism and rape harm individual (white men in this case) 
interest. It was not my intent to dismiss other arguments on the subject.